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millie Feb 10, 2008

Am I just crazy, or is alpaca horrible to needle felt?  I got some alpaca at a really good price, so I decided to give it a try.  I absolutely love the long silky fiber, but it seems to be so difficult to needle felt.  Am I doing something wrong?

Daphne Feb 10, 2008

If it's long and silky then YES, it will be hard to felt. The silkier it is the harder it is to get those fibers to fuse together! Merino wool is the same way. Something to do with the shaft of the hair/fiber being so smooth..... so they don't "stick" together.

I'll leave it for Bobbie to explain though!

Lisa Feb 10, 2008

I started out felting Alpaca (actually, I started out felting dryer lint but that's another story) so I really had nothing to compare it to.  If you have an Alpaca breeder/farm close by though as I do, ask them to sell you their thirds.  That fiber is going to be a little more course giving your needle something more to grab on to when you are felting.

Anyway, now that I've been felting for a couple of years, I have felted both and prefer the Alpaca.

Have fun!

Can't wait to see what you are making!!!

Swan Valley Bears Feb 10, 2008

Yes, it is difficult.  My cousin, who has an alpaca farm in Kentucky, sent me a huge bagful.  I think the fur from an entire animal.  It feels soooo soft but not too good for needle felting.  I sent about half of it to Charlotte and she spun it and knitted a purse.  That turned out beautiful.

Zada Creations Feb 11, 2008

No Millie, you are not crazy, lol.  Alpaca does take longer to felt up.  Years ago I needle felted a 6" inch Alpaca sculpture out of solid Alpaca fiber, not a fun experience as it took forever and a year of needling to get it really firm, lol!

Not all fibers have the same structure and qualities.  Alpaca is a "fine" fiber.  For most applications of felting uses, "coarse" fibers (such as Romney, Cotswold...) are better for needle felting as they have more crimp and felt tightly faster.  Crimp are like overlapping scales on the fiber and it's the amount of crimp that gives fiber the grab to felt. 

That being said there are times when I needle felt that I purposely choose to use a "fine" fiber.  For instance Merino (which is a fine fiber) I  choose to use for long silky hair - such as on a long haired dog or a dolls head.  And I use Alpaca quite often as a soft fluffy outer layer of fur on a lot of my animals.

Your right, Alpaca is a beautiful, soft, silky fiber .....  and used in certain applications can be wonderful!

(Hugs),
~Patricia

pma2003 Feb 11, 2008

Hello Millie,

Funny you should post this about the alpaca, I just purchased some and have the same problems.  I gave up and decided to tackle the merino instead. I posted my little bear on teddy talk. Her name is "Pretty Penny".

Daphne Feb 11, 2008

A suggestion:

Use a coarser wool for the base shape of your creation, then use those smooth, long fibers as your "top coat".... pretend you are painting with wool! This way you can still use that silky alpaca but will be able to felt your shape quickly and easily with a more coarse fiber.

If you are buying your felting wool online... especially on eBay.... keep in mind that just because they say it's for needlefelting or 'felting' that doesn't mean it's going to suit your particular needs. There are so many ways to needlefelt ..... doing surface design is one thing..... the more silky fibers can be used for this... though it still takes extra time. But needlefelting a 3D teddy bear requires a totally different type of wool!

rkr4cds Feb 12, 2008

Thx for the Nod, Daphne - yes, agreed with all: alpaca is in the very fine-micron sized fibers, right along with Merino and Alpaca. For those who get used to using it it's heaven, but MUCH more difficult to start with.

You see, we've got to educate ourselves on what type of fibers are available, in terms of thickness/microns.

Micron being a metric unit of distance equal to one millionth of a meter or 1/25,000 of an inch. The human hair average about 100 microns. Compare that to a Merino fiber that ranges between 17 - 22 microns. ©RKR4CDS

From that you can deduce that it will take many more of the finer fibers to 'fill the same space' that a 4" sculpture will if needled with medium fiber, like the Corriedales and Romney. And a WHOLE lot more needling.

Pat, I'm going to give your words just a bit of a twist (sorry!) Being a hair-dresser for 47 years, any hair/fiber has been of interest to me.

>>>coarse" fibers (such as Romney, Cotswold...) are better for needle felting as they have more crimp and felt tightly faster.  Crimp are like overlapping scales on the fiber and it's the amount of crimp that gives fiber the grab to felt. <<<<

Each fiber has an outer layer called the Cuticle, which is made up of overlapping 'scales' as those on a fish or roof tiles.
Human hair has very narrow bands of scales, so there are many more than on most sheep breeds' fibers, yet it's micron/thickness makes it difficult to needle in easily. Too stiff. Anyone using a fiber that has not had the longer Guard hairs removed knows exactly which ones I mean. Silk has almost no scales, so even though it's one of the finest/thinnest fiber, it stays in place more by physically pushing the fibers between each other than by getting the scales to catch against each other.   

The crimp refers to the number of back & forth movements (in direction) that each fiber has in say - an inch. Cormo may have up to 25 crimps (like those old Permanent waves from the 20s/30s) while mohair has only one or two.
There are even different classes of 'crimp; here're 3:
Crimp - flat waves,
Waves - that move back and forth like an S but don't lay as flat a crimp, and
Curls, which are in the "Long Wools", like Wensleydale.

Here's where crimp adds to the combination of choosing a fiber for both its micron count and the amount of crimp or curl. Using the right fibers for each project (should it be soft? able to stand up by itself? shiny or matte finish? handleable ot Don't Touch?): while there are other fiber just as fine as Merino and Alpaca, these also have Crimp going for them. Picture a plate of curly noodles and penne pasta: which are going to be entangled just by dint of their shape (crimp), having nothing to do with their outer sides (scales)?

So - if you're looking for another fine fiber with the next-to-the-skin softness look for others with the smallest micron sizes. Check Google!! Some suggested breeds are Targhee, Cormo, Polworth, Finn....

I said we're going to have to educate ourselves, because most of the knowledge about working with wool comes out of the pre-history, traditional Wet felting methods. And the same fibers simply do not work the same with both handling applications! And many of the retailer sellers of Needle Felting tools & fibers are operating on things like Factoids: factoids are 'descriptions' or 'facts' seen in print, accepted as the truth and passed on, right or wrong. They have no personal knowledge of working with these different tools and fibers and are merely quoting what's been passed along to them. In many ways, we know WAY more that the middle men! I prefer to purchase & support the small flock owners who really know their animals and know what its capable of.

When you find a fiber you like the look and feel of, Google it to find the micron and the average fiber length. There's no sense working so hard to needle in 6" of length when there are other 3 - 4" fiber breeds with the same qualities! Unless you know you're buying from someone who really 'knows' Needle Felting, do your own reearch and then purchase the smallest amount they'll sell (usually about 4 ounces) to try it for yourself.

Bobbie
2008©RKR4CDS
Sorry to keep attaching this, but I've found 2 more different instances today of my words (my work) being quoted without print credit, as if thought up by the person writing them.

Daphne Feb 12, 2008

Bobbie...... that's why I didn't say much or get technical.... cause I knew I wouldn't be quite right and you'd have the answer!   

I hope your book will have perhaps a table set up with the various types of wool (or at least the more common/readily available ones), basic qualities one would need to know at a glance, what applications they are best for and a list of similar type fibers in the event one is at a shop or online looking and can't find the exact type you recommend. Just for those of us with short attention spans who might not be able to read or retain a very thorough explination at that particular moment!

Your knowledge on this subject just blows me away. Your love and passion certainly shows in your knowledge and explinations!!!

millie Feb 12, 2008

Thank you all so much for the info, and for letting me know that I am not crazy. (Well, maybe the jury is still out on the crazy verdict.)

rkr4cds Feb 12, 2008

Ah, that's the hang-up for me Daphne. In one way or another I've got most of the text written.

I'm reading a book right now 'Publishing Confidential' - how-to write book proposals to editors, etc..

The writing part is EZ, it's those 300+ samples of different breeds that I've collected from many different small flock owners. They are willing to be suppliers to us NFers.
They're in-the-grease or 'raw', which I keep putting off processing. Lanolin makes me GAG (What was I thinking?? LOL)

I need to photograph them in their shorn state, clean them, needle them, rephotograph them and catalog all of this in tables or spread sheets as I work through the stacks. That's part of what's stalling this manuscript..... but it WILL happen.

Tine Feb 20, 2008

I was sitting here with my dictionary and found it very interesting to read
there are so many types of wool and so many names I even dont know in German 

I started of with a needlefelting kit and it was so addictive...I had to do more
so I just learned by trying...ordered some needles and found out which ones I like to work with
and I bought some merino wool on ebay because they offered so many different coulors
So you can say, I started of with merino
taking that long for felting I thought it was because I was a beginner, I got used to merino and I really love the soft and smooth surface
so what i wanted to say...I love using merino wool even if it takes soooo long to do one of my little felties

rkr4cds Feb 20, 2008

These are beautiful, Tine - I've not seen your work before as you don't post very often.

You can get the same smooth effect by working with fibers like Cormo, which are about 3:" long, loads of tiny crimps so stretched they'd probably be 4"+ and they needle very smoothly with 40 & 42.

What size needles do you use with your Merino?

Bobbie

Tine Feb 20, 2008

These are beautiful, Tine - I've not seen your work before as you don't post very often.

You can get the same smooth effect by working with fibers like Cormo, which are about 3:" long, loads of tiny crimps so stretched they'd probably be 4"+ and they needle very smoothly with 40 & 42.

What size needles do you use with your Merino?

Bobbie

Many thanks...I just joined TT two weeks ago

I'm using different sizes, mainly 38 and 42 wit a short spike(?) and some I don't know :redface:
they are just called fine, middle & coarse and have a longer spike(?)

rkr4cds Feb 20, 2008

It's a real shame that retailers don't give the sizes! What is coarse, medium and fine to one company, is not the same descriptions and needle sizes used by another.

I demand the sizes to be listed or I tell them I'll shop elsewhere. At Sisters & Daughters Co, I ordered a "Replacement" set of needles: they are 8 needles of the style I never use - 8 x 0 x 0: a Tri style with 8 close-set barbs on one edge. It's application is not one I use in my firmly needle work.
The retailers  CAN find out these numbers from their suppliers, as it's part of every company's restocking order numbers.

Even saying that one needle is longer than the others isn't enough information, as several needles are either 3" or 3.5" long, depending on the Style, which is designated by where the barbs are set along the shafts and how many there are.

Most of those selling the longer needles, stock these in a 36 Triangle size/style which is more difficult to use as a starter needle in Merino, for several factors, mostly that its thickness doesn't allow it to penetrate as easily and it's carrying far too many of the thinnest fibers in with each thrust. With Merino, 38 Tri or Star is the largest  needle that I'd begin with; 38/40/42.
42 is a great finish needle with all of the fine micron fibers; it's not as effective (doesn't show as much in results) on the medium fibers as using the 36/38/40 combination.

Tine Feb 20, 2008

you are right, it was very difficult to get the right tools/needles
I bought needles called "fine" from different sellers and all needles were different
so I choosed my favorite needles just by trying them out

rkr4cds Feb 20, 2008

Ahh, "and there's the rub..." as Shakespeare says.
Now that you have your favorites, did you mark down where they all were purchased from??

I learned my lesson with fiber: if I like it I want to be able to order more with confidence that I'll receive the same product... and if I hated it, I don't want to throw good money after bad! Keep the receipts in the bags!

Bobbie