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wendi Mar 29, 2008

Hi all

I have been wanting to try needlefelting for some time but never got round to it. I have been looking through lots of the posts but have not managed to find the answers to my questions so I'm hoping someone can help

At this point I don't want to make a full bear but would like to start needlefelting on a mohair bear, maybe paw pads/toes, then later maybe a muzzle.

As far as I can work out I need;
Batt wool (better than roving..whatever that is  )
Needle size 38 or 40. Is that right?  (my bears are 4-5")
A foam pad. Any foam?
Any other equipment needed?

more questions:
I normally use ultrasuede for paw pads, do I need to use mohair and trim it instead?

The needles i think are barbed so how do you avoid ripping the mohair backing when poking?

So I have my foot pad attached to bear..what do I do?  roll a ball of batt , stick it on and start poking?  I really don't have a clue do I  :crackup:

Are there any books that cover needlefelting onto mohair bears rather than just needlefelting?

Are there any UK sites that sell everything i need?

I am so impatient to get started on this I think I'm gonna burst   I shall look forward to any replies, many thanks

rkr4cds Mar 31, 2008

I've added to and more fully explained a few of my responses 3 hours later, in proof-reading:

At this point I don't want to make a full bear but would like to start needlefelting on a mohair bear, maybe paw pads/toes, then later maybe a muzzle.
B: Great place to start!! If you haven't made the bear yet, most of us needlers would recommend that the areas you intend to needle into, be stuffed with wool, as it bonds better with the fibers being thrust inside from your outside surface treatments. But very firmly stuffed polyfil work OK too.
Pluck or shave the nap right down to the backing as that will eliminate anything that might prevent a good bond between the inside & outside fibers.

As far as I can work out I need;
Batt wool (better than roving..whatever that is)
B:  Batt is a put-up, as is Roving. Batt fibers have been removed from a small-business size or industrial in a full sheet the width of the carding drums. Roving has been removed in a thin strand industrially, or pulled off the personal drum carder (through a Diz) into thin continuous 'ropes'.
Either put up works well for Needling: it's more important to consider the breed of sheep that the fiber is from and whether or not the roving is a 'Top' configuration. Top are the longest, straightest fibers that are best put to use by spinners, when they're producing a worsted-style yarn ply. Worsted here does not refer to the thickness of yarn, as in Fingering/Sportswt/Worsted/.
It means long straight SMOOTH plies that don't have many fuzzy ends poking out of the yarn. Gabardine & twill woven fabrics use this: creating tightly-woven, smooth fabrics. Think of those summer-wt Italian wool suits. Worsted! Now picture a Tweed suit - fuzzy, hardy & thick. The type of put up the spinners create woolen vs worsted is what allows both 'fabrics' to be made as they are.
Woolen yarns are produced from yarn plies that have the fibers all mixed together in different directions, making them fuzzier and incorporating lofty air spaces.
Batts create this type of put up, which is what is most effective in the smoothest, sturdiest needle felting.

You can purchase either or both (I suggest you do so) to see which you like to work with best.

One would think that a smooth (Top) yarn put-up would create smooth-surfaced needling, but for too many reasons to write here  it works to the opposite effect.  The only place I've listed them all are in the manuscript I'm working on.

E.g., look at the Gallery of Stephanie Metz.com site that we were all commenting on this morning: all of her work is smooth & tight - very firmly needled, though there is a fuzzy surface on some pieces. What I'm attempting to point out is that in all pcs EXCEPT the empty bunting, no fiber travels farther than 1/2" w/o changing direction. She does not merely roll up fiber into the right shapes and sizes and needle them in place, or Wrap more lengths of fiber around her work to build it up.
She has added carded fiber in small, running in randomly-oriented directions, in small amounts to build her sculptures.
There are no fibers running all in one direction, with the exception of that empty baby bunting. Comparing the directional fibers of that piece to all the rest of her work points out the 2 different styles. I have named the the Wrap and the Patch© methods in describing my work and the other style. As she's an artist whose work gains its strength from being totally integrated in all different directions - and gaining it strength from matting with fibers in as many differet areas of the pieces as possible, I suspect that she would have created even that empty bunting in her normal way, and covered the surface with long, smooth top fibers needled into it, as lightly as possible.
Top is usually just wrapped around a structure during its construction: easily spotted by the fibers laying parallel to each other on the surface. (Remember about the fibers going farther than 1/2" before changing direction - through having been thrust inside w/a barbed needle.)
This was more than you wanted to hear on this, but I wanted to make the visual comparison between 2 different styles of put-up and end results that we are discussing in another thread on TT, as they include the Batt put-up.

Needle size 38 or 40.
B: The needle size is the last thing to choose.
First comes your Project  and what it needs - will it be an un-handled seasonal decoration that is on display for a short period and put away in storage? Does it need to support it's own weight or be supported by another structure? Will it be like a corsage pin that will be handled and abrade against your clothing while being worn? These are all at opposite ends of the needling spectrum, in terms of soft to very firm.  You need to know how to do all styles of needling to consider yourself as having mastery over your materials and tools.

After deciding on the project (and its need for softness or firmness) you choose a fiber/sheep breed for its length/crimp/curl that matches the type of need you have for your design.
Only then do you finally choose the needles that best 'work' that breed. The needles are independent of the softness or firmness of your project. It's in how many fibers can be carried into the mass with each thrust: larger sized needles have larger barbs, smaller/thinner needles have smaller barbs.
I think it's important to explain things in an understandable way, in layman's terms. Here is one of the explanations from my manuscript - a 'taste' or "tease':

Hold up your hand with fingers together and thumb extended. If someone asked you to help them roll up some 2" thick ropes, how many strands do you think you'd be able to hold in one hand, in that notch formed between your thumb and palm/other upright fingers?

Another friend asks you to help wind a skein of yarn into balls: how many (more!!) strands of yarn will that same thumb and palm notch be able to hold of yarn over the number of rope strands?
This analogy is the easiest for people to understand about Micron size of animal fibers.

Also, the size of the barbs in the needles directly relate to the size of the needles: larger (thicker) needles have larger barbs. Smaller/thinner needles have smaller barbs.  Both you and a Baby can hold that notch with your thumb and palm, but which one of you is going to be able to hold more (of the same thickness) of fibers? The adult, of course.

So, theoretically, Yes, you could use a larger 36 or 38 needle with a 18 micron size fiber, like the Merino, but you'd be pulling fibers from too many directions at once and attempting to push this thicker wad of them down between the smaller spaces between very thin fibers. A needle like a 38 - 40 would make a better beginning choice for these fibers.
And if you chose a smaller 38 or 40 needle to begin a project with 32 micron fiber, like thicker micron-Lincoln, Churro/Navajo or Romney...remember the 2" thick ropes? You would have a lot of wasted effort (arm thrusts) because you would pick up far fewer of the thicker fibers with each thrust than with a needle with a larger barb.

So always think:
1 - Project
2 - what fiber to best create that project, and
3 - which needles work that fiber breed best.
It's not a bad idea to have a nice selection of 4 or 5 sizes and/or styles on hand while you learn these associations for yourself. Between 36 and 40 in Triangle and Star is a good selection.

Is that right?  (my bears are 4-5")
B: This is a good size the start with, though a bear between 6" - 10" gives you a little more room to work.
As any miniaturist knows, it's harder to get the same detail in a 4" than it is on a 10" bear.

A foam pad. Any foam?
B: Get the best quality upholstery foam that you can find. At least 2" thick (3" is better) and about 8" x 8" sq. As you'll be doing most of your work as embellishing on the muzzle & paws of a mohair bear, most of your work will be done directly into the bear. But you'll slightly pre-needle your fiber on the foam surface first, and when you finally design an all-fiber piece, it will all be worked on the foam until it's needled firm enough to hold in your hand.
Just don't use a towel or sofa cushion as these are hard on the needles (retaining sharpness and not breaking!) and will tire your arm out sooner as they're harder to thrust into.

Any other equipment needed?
B: Yes. I always recommend re-carding your fiber just before use to fluff it up again; it settles in shipping and in storage. Expanding it out evenly before beginning to needle completely through the mass and into the foam with each thrust, turning the mass after every few thrusts, is the only way to consistently get solid-centered, very firmly needled work.
Let me look through my/our past posts in the Library to see where this has been discussed in the Needle Felting threads.
ADDED LATER: Here's the wonderful spinnere/weaver's site that shows a short demo on hand-carding:
http://www.joyofhandspinning.com/hand-carding.shtml
If purchasing a pair of hand cards is not in your budget, generally about $50 for the pair, get a pair of pet grooming brushes (bent needles) and use those - it does the same work, just producing smaller amounts of carded fiber (rolags) at a time.

more questions:
I normally use ultrasuede for paw pads, do I need to use mohair and trim it instead?
B: That's your choice but if you're going to cover the paws completely, I'd say make it all mohair (trimmed down) Ultrasuede is hard to push through: harder on the needles & and your arm/wrist/hand.
Best of all, you no longer need to cut a separate paw pad, just pluck out the mohair in the areas of the paws you intend to needle over.

The needles I think are barbed so how do you avoid ripping the mohair backing when poking?
B: The barbs on most (but not all) brands & sizes and styles do not project up higher than the needles' working shaft. They won't cut the backing if the barbs are filled with fiber as that then becomes a solid, smooth edge passing through. There are Formed barbs and Cut barbs: cut ones have sharp edges and (usually) stick up higher than the sides of the needle's shaft.

Until you get the feel of what you're doing, (yes, it is possible to needle in one place so often that you cut the warp & weft backing), pre-needle the parts you'll attach onto the bear on the foam surface first and then needle them in evenly over the whole surface of where they're to be added on the bear. Once that first layer is firmly bonded into the fibers inside the bear, subsequent fiber will be needled into this outside base and you won't be going into the mohair backing continuously throughout the process. If you're unsure about the edges being completely bonded and not lifting but not want to keep needling, you can sew the edges down with needle and thread.

So I have my foot pad attached to bear..what do I do?  roll a ball of batt , stick it on and start poking?  I really I don't have a clue do I   
B: It is all theory right now for you. When you begin to get your needle into fiber, this will all make sense!
You'll shape most of the paw pad/toes/nose on the foam, needling it down by 50% of the fluffy amount/size you began with. THEN it will be needled into place on your bear. More advanced needlers can do it right on the surface but you'll get more uniform results by starting it on the foam.
Needle all matching pieces before attaching anything, as it's difficult to determine how much fiber you started with once you've begun to needle it down.
Well, you strike a nerve in me with rolling any fiber. I don't feel that it makes the strongest structure inside & out when fiber is put together this way. I teach in an entirely different technique and would be happy to get you started privately.
Please send me your address off-list and I'll send you a needle, printed info & fiber to get started with.

Are there any books that cover needlefelting onto mohair bears rather than just needlefelting?
B: No, none that I'm aware of, because that is just one of the hundreds of uses/methods in embellishment for Needling fiber. (May I add you to my Prospective Client list for when I finally finish this tome!!??)

Are there any UK sites that sell everything i need?
B: Someone there can best answer that. To my knowledge, Wingham Wool Works sells needles that have cut barbs, at least that's what they sent me about 5 years ago; the oftener you strike the fibers with these sharper edges, the more likely it is to cut the fibers or cause them to break while being stretched.
As to fiber, just don't be beguiled by those shining ropes of fiber, wound high in cylindrical loops; even if it's mot called outright as Top, it most likely is. You can use it, but because it's been prepared for spinners/knitters/weavers it's going to be a lot harder/longer to work into your designs than the matte-looking fuzzier batt.
This is so new, and so many retailers have found us as a new market, that they promote their products as good for needle felting or just for 'Felting. As we've learned, and we hope the retailers as middlemen will learn this too - what works great for WET felters doesn't make the same fiber a good candidate for dry felting: needling.

I am so impatient to get started on this I think I'm gonna burst .  I shall look forward to any replies, many thanks
B: We're all like this when we get a great idea! And you cannot avoid things that you'll later term a mistake and chalk up to experience later on. But by approaching this slowly, with a small project like you have planned is an excellent start!

Great questions, BTW! One can tell that you've already been doing your research!!

wendi Mar 31, 2008

WOW Bobbie! what a fantastic reply, thank you so so much   I'm sure it will be helpful to other newbies to needle felting too :dance:

I need to read through it all again to take it all in and will contact you directly in a few days if that's ok

Thanks again Bobbie, you are a star 

Laurie Mar 31, 2008

Thanks for all that info Bobbie
I want to start needle felting in the same way as Wendi and the answers have been very helpful.I have had a kit with a book since xmas and it is next on my to do lists and I want to get started as soon as I find time.Any extra hints and tips are always helpful as it is quicker to learn when you have as much info before hand and saves on too many mistakes
Laurie :hug:

rkr4cds Mar 31, 2008

Well, I can't save you from mistakes Laurie - you know how Experience is the Best Teacher!!!

But give a holler with any comments/questions!
B

Peggy Apr 2, 2008

Hi Wendy.  I wanted to start needle felting too but did not know where to begin.  I looked on Etsy.com and found quite a few people selling wool.  I was able to get a lady to tailor make a "package" for me.  I told her which colours I wanted (black, white, brown for sure) and she added a few more colours.  All together, I got about 8 balls, 3 needles, a piece of foam and some basic instructions for $15.00 plus $7.00 postage.  It was well worth it as I really had no idea what to order.  I had some discarded teddy bear heads that I didn't like so just started experimenting by adding wool to the faces.  It was actually quite easy and lots of fun.  I can't wait to do more.

Peggy

Mo Beary Apr 3, 2008

Bobbie,  Thanks for all the great info.  It is priceless to the needle felting novice!!!

rkr4cds Apr 3, 2008

Thank you, Ma'am!!
If I don't see my way clear to finishing my manuscript, I may just print off all of my TT posts and bind them for sale! LOL

fredbear Apr 3, 2008

Bobby
I must thank you, you have taught me so much about needle felting and  it has allowed me to share this with others here in South Africa. ( They think I am oh so clever!!!) I first started off doing a class with Judi- EZ Bear University and that got me felting and via you and other teddy talk "felters" my knowledge has grown and grown.

 
Lynette

pma2003 Apr 7, 2008

Bobbie,
A marvelous job of explaining things..