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'Bear' Bottoms OriginalsHi all and thanks for putting up with what will probably be a completely silly question.
Before I buy any, can someone please tell me what the difference is (besides being able to get a tighter joint) between locknut and cotter pin joints? I've only ever used cotter pin joints. Are lock nuts easier to tighten down inside a bear? Do they take less time? HOW DO I USE THEM?!?!?! LOL
Thanks in advance, all!
Kimberly W.
Melbourne, AustraliaKimberly,
I have used both and now only ever use locknuts for jointing. I find them easier to use and much better for having more even tightness in the joints...you don't get any limbs looser than the other. However, I don't do minis, my bears range from 7 to 30 inches.
Time wise I don't think there is any difference.
The one inserted in the head is glued with superglue prior to inserting. After you have inserted this into the body, hold the head and tighten the nut with a spanner. The head must be hard stuffed or the joint will slip around when you try to tighten.
I hope you can follow this...if you need more detail PM me.
Big hugs,
Sandi
Donna's Duin BruinsI use set screws for anything 6" and over. I feel I get a much more consistant joint with the nut and bolt or set screw method of jointing. It is also less damaging to your hands and wrists if you do many bears. And if you ever have to take a joint apart it is no problem with the locknut, but you have to cut apart a cotter pin. If you only make mini to very small bears you will want to stick with cotter pins. The arms of some smaller bears will not handle the bolt head. Do you want me to send you a set or two of set screws to try out before you make a decision?
Donna
Lucky Penny BearsI've used both, I prefer Locknut for bigger bears and cotterpins for smaller bears. Locknuts make me feel like a hippo on rollerscates when trying to install them 
(well the first couple of times!), it was a funny sight let me tell you 
. I can get the cotterpins in alot easier and tend to prefer them.
Flying Fur StudiosGo check out Daphne's site. I'm pretty sure she has a tutorial on there about locknut joints.
I say they're a little more difficult, but the tightness is really nice.
Past Time BearsI MUCH prefer locknut joints . . . soooooo much easier on my old hands and in my opinion, faster to use. Probably just a matter of what you get used to, though. I like to use cotter pins ONLY when I'm making a loosely jointed bear or one with a wobbly neck, but that's not very often.
Posts: 1,836I only ever used cotter pins. I read a bunch of threads on TT about the lock nut joints, how to glue them, etc. I've used them 2 times so far on larger bears I'm working on and I wouldn't go back to cotter pins unless I wanted a wobbly joint. I'm using "liquid nails" glue & it's working well..... so far so good!! 
~Chrissi
ebay, ctcatherwoods
coming summer2006 www.CatherWoods.com
Posts: 8,574Some people epoxy the bolt to the head disc prior to putting it in. But thwen you have to wait a while.....
I am not that organized... the body joints are easy to tighten...I go absolutely as tight as I can and then ratchet back 2 times...that seems to give a tight enough joint, given that they do, for some reason I cannot fathom, loosen after the limbs are stuffed.
I use a locking plier to hold the bolt while I tighten it, yes, I have to move the locking plier when I get to a certain place. and repostion it.
Intercal has the best prices on the bolts, nuts and discs...even going through my hubbys catalogs, I couldn't find better pricing...
If you go with bolts you wont be sorry but get your self one of those nifty ratchet things that simply do all the work for you.
Country BearsHi Kim,
NOT a silly question at all!! That's what we're here for (OK, usually to hear my silly questions, you've lightened the load for me - thanks!!! :crackup: )
I tired and failed with nut and bolt joints............ in fact in the end my hubby (a mechanic) had to get involved and I even threw the bear across the room in a temper at one point!!! 
I know LOTS of artists use them and prefer them, but until I gather the urge to use them again, I use cotter pins!! :dance: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:
Give them a try, BUT DO GLUE them before use, makes life a whole lot easier!!! Good luck!! 
'Bear' Bottoms OriginalsThank you all so much for your input on locknuts. Usually cotter pins work fine for me and I can get them down plenty tight enough (MOST of the time!!!! lol) for my liking, but I just wanted to know if I was 'missing out' on somethng just because I've gotten used to using one thing over the other. You all are so gracious to help! :hug:
Donna, that is SUPER nice of you to offer to send a few locknuts for me to try out!!! :hug: :hug: :hug: It's simply the idea that you've offered to send your own inventory along so that I can experience locknuts! Thank you! I think i'll stick with cotterpins for the time being. Perhaps sometime when I'm feeling froggy I'll give them a try. I'll admit, I do get frustrated at the cotterpins sometimes; perhaps a nice cotterpin turner rather than needlenose pliers would benefit me. HA!
Kimberly W.
Apple Dumpling DesignsKim,
I've been using locknuts first I tried setscrews...now I'm trying bolts which are cheaper and actually easier for me to use...and I DON'T GLUE them...to be honest I don't see the point but then again I haven't tried it. It's quite simple and I won't go back to cotterpins either. Once you get the hang of it they are so much nicer feeling. It takes a couple bears...a few Clare tantrums but once you get it...big happy dance!!! The biggest investment are the right tools which have been discussed in earlier posts.
Good Luck!!!
BrisbaneI have used locknuts once or twice but have found that I prefer cotter pins for the size bear that I do (5 - 9 inches).
I feel that they are tight enough and like you have always used needle nosed pliers...that said I brought myself a cotter pin turner on the weekend so I'll let you know if that is better/easier.
Kim-Bee BearsI just use cotter pins... I didnt like that my joints weren't getting tight so I bought two cotter keys! WOW! What a difference!! If you don't have one, Kim, I highly recommend getting a few! (they tend to wear down a bit after a while)
sewing starsi have tried both, and really like the locknuts. i like having the control over the tightness, since i prefer to get my bears to stand on their own if possible. i am intrigued by sandi's decription of how to handle the head, because i have been doing locknuts on the arms & legs, but still cotterpinning the head...i will have to try the superglue method next time!
i am so glad you asked this question, i learned something new! yay!
Donna's Duin BruinsTeresa,
If you use set screws you do not have to glue the disc to the bolt and can use them in the head. One of the things I like best about the set screws is that you are not spending precious time doing tedious tasks like glueing your joints and you can sew all the arms and legs closed before they go on the body. The part I did not like about set screws was the small allen key to hold the screws. I have since found a hex head bit that fits the set screws that goes into a screwdriver and the set screw jointing system is a breeze now. Give them a try!
Donna
Adorable BearsI much prefer locknuts. They also add weight to a bear. In the head I usually use a "grub" screw which has a locknut on each end which is then tightened with an allen key. These are also great for the limbs as the limb can be filled and the seam closed prior to attatching to the body. They cost a little more but better than messing around with glue.
Lock nuts are also stronger for any bear ,and are preferable for that reason in any bear over 6".
But in the long run ...give each a good try (more than 2 or 3) then decide which is best for your bears.
Susan
www.adorablebears.com.au
Posts: 280I have always used cotter pins for my bears, and have no trouble getting them so tight you can hardly turn the limbs. That said, I'd love to be able to do a good crown joint with them. I've tried, but have never mastered it, though Dale has shown me more than once.
The locknuts leave me feeling like I am trying to put them on with my feet! I feel so clumsy, as I have to hold the bear in one hand, while holding a wrench, yet the other hand is full of the arm or leg as well as the ratchet. Yikes! One slip, and it's over for me. Too frustrating.
I do have a question about locknuts, however. Almost everyone I have talked with uses washes along with the locknuts. Huh? What is the reason for the washers? Once you put that bolt and the nut on there, is there a reason for using as washer as well, or is this just something they have all learned and can't break the habit?
Luann
Donna's Duin BruinsLuann,
It is to help prevent wear and tear on the disc. In the olden days when they were using pop rivets or nails to joint, the constant movement of the metal against the disc would eventually wear away the disc so that the nail head or rivet came through the disc which caused the bear to loose it's arm or leg. They started putting a metal washer between the metal rivet or nail and there was no longer any wear to the disc. It would take several decades for this to happen but I personally would rather put it in and not worry. There are many that don't use them.
Donna
Posts: 280Thanks for the info Donna. I have always wondered why they used the washers, and now I know. I remember the pop rivet days! Goodness, wonder how many of us have been making bears that long? Ha!
Luann
Back Road BearsKim,
I have to fess up to the fact that I didn't read everyone's responses but you've not doubt learned the difference and that there are bolts with loc-nut and set screws with loc-nut joints.
You've probably learned that, although there are more parts with either type of loc-nut joint, they do indeed produce a tighter, stronger and longer lasting joint. You have control over how tight the joints are which you really don't with cotter pins.
For setscrews I did indeed do a little tutorial as someone here had needed a visual at one point in time.... this is a 'much talked about' topic here at TT! Here's the link: http://www.backroadbears.com/joints.htm
Personally.... I think it would be in your best interest to give one of these other types of joints a try. I was taught to make bears using cotter pins. Once I discovered bolts and loc-nuts I NEVER went back to cotter pins. I don't bother with all the gluing and stuff.... too many unnecessary steps if you simply attach the limbs THEN stuff.
Then someone showed me a set screw and I now use them on all my neck joints so I only have to leave an opening in the neck to stuff.
Lots of options out there..... something for everyone! So cool!!
I use a BOLT and a LOCKNUT and the tools I use are two identical NUT DRIVERS, which are basically screwdrivers with a nut-shaped (hex-shaped) head, instead of a screwdriver head. This is much easier, I think anyway, than fiddling with a wrench, so you might want to try it, Luann.
I just made sure to buy the nut drivers in the precise size required to fit the locknuts I'm using.
By the way... I'm one of the one who uses washers. Just as extra "insurance." Occasionally, though, I'll forget to put one on. And so, like Donna said, it will probably take a hundred years for that circumstance to create a problem -- if it happens that soon! -- so I don't worry about it too much. But when I remember, I do use washers, just to protect the disks a little bit from wear.
I use nut and bolt joints...unless I am putting in wired limbs...in which case I use cotter pins..
I do pre-glue the bolts and discs along with a washer...mainly because I find it easier to stuff the limbs before I assemble the bear...I stuff the limbs...put in the pre-glued joint assembly...stitch up the opening ..then I can assemble the bear using only one nut-driver to tighten. It isn't hard...it's very easy....but it's just another method in a sea of methods!!!!!
