Banner Sponsors

Daphne Aug 1, 2006

I know, strange topic but I need help here.

Tucker (the 2 yr old Wheaten Terrier, puppy mill dog who has had lots of 'issues', mental and physical in his short life) is now acting really strange. If we say "sit" or "down" he backs far away from us. Does this to both voice and hand commands. He spends most of his time just standing around, head hung a little, looking forlorn. You are probably thinking he has a back or muscle problem. I tell ya, I've poked, prodded, massaged every inch of his body and get no reaction from him indicating discomfort. He's been acting like this for 4 days now. Today I took him to my parents for the day, thinking the ride, which he loves, and a change of scenery would snap him out of it. Instead, tonight, he's worse. He won't play much with our other dog, just defends himself against Riley's perisitent nipping. He's eating just fine. Going potty just fine. He'll wag his tail when we give him pats and lovin'... doesn't back away from us then.

Do you think it's a physical problem? Mental? Normally, when he's having a round of being "not quite right in the head", his behavior involves a day or two of moping around and sighing a lot, acting very bored, but he snaps out of it quickly for a treat or a long walk. This is totally different.

We've both tried to think of a time last week that we may have gotten angry at him or for any reason given him cause to back away from us when given those commands and neither one of can think of a time. The dog sitter was here last Wednesday but I don't THINK she'd be mean to them ever!

Those are commands we use multiple times a day as sit is required to get a treat, dinner, the leash attached, etc. He will automatically sit for dinner w/o being asked still, so it's not like he CAN'T sit. But he won't do it for a treat or any time we ASK. He hides or just stands there with sad eyes.

None of this makes any sense. See why I'm so confussed? Worst thing, it breaks my heart to see him distraught and he can't tell me why. 

Do I call the vet? Can they do an MRI of his brain????? Could this be a medical problem at all? Is it mental? I don't want to call the only dog psychologist in the area as the last time I did that I paid $250 for her to tell me that all of Tucker's 'issues' are MY fault! Turns out it was a med. he was on!

Suggestions, any one??

chrissibrinkley Aug 1, 2006

Daphne,
Not to sound nuts, but has your routine changed in anyway recently?  Maybe he's picking up on something.  My "smart dog" can be a bundle of nerves if things change around the house.  I call her too smart because most would call her a crazy nut dog.  She's high energy and athletic, very observant, and very sensitive. She's a "velcro dog"(my shadow) and doesn't like it when I leave the house, she has separation anxiety...seriously dogs can get this....she wasn't happy in crates, so we created a dog room so she wouldn't get creative and find things to do while awaiting my return. (They have 2 flannel sheeted twin mattresses, toys, and a stereo that plays smooth jazz. It's a doggie spa for God's sake!! And it works.) She's a working dog in a suburban home, not her fault...I'm the one who brought a farm dog into a plain jane house with no sheep to herd!!  :crackup: So in my book she's smart...my husband calls her nuts 
blphhhhhh to him!

Back to your boy... has your routine changed? Are you gone more, home more, could the dog walker have used a stronger tone with the sit stay where it may have seemed like he did something wrong and is now associating with the commands (???)  Is he currently on any meds that may need adjusting?
Just ideas and things a trainer brought up with my Brinkley.  Pretty much they can do any test on a dog that they do on us, I guess the question is what are they looking for??  I'd take him to the vet just to check him out.  Is he having any issues with anything visually...is he able to catch a ball, and move around normally, is he off balance, are his ears clear?? (our one dog got vertigo once with an ear infection....that was not fun)

As I'm typing I thought of this....the last time he did a sit stay or down was it for something normal? or could it have been for something unpleasant like the vet, a pill, a bath, the groomer......??? Was he groomed recently where they might have put pressure on his neck or used a command incorrectly??? I've heard horror stories about groomers, vets, kennels, etc so I thought I'd mention.

Just ideas. 

I'd just sit next to him on the floor, gently pet him in long gentle strokes and say the words of the command and treat him. Praise him with "good boy" words, love him calmly and gently, no high energy stuff right off.  Don't make him do the command, just say the word and give a treat .... if he's happy and taking the treats after a few times slowly kneel up next to him and do the same...gradually move into a stand and do the same and see if he'll move into the command.  Make it a really really good treat like a hotdog or something so special he won't want to back away or move. It's like baby stepping him back into the positivity of the command.  You might not ever know what happened to spook him, but you want to get him back to being a happy pooch with the commands.

Good Luck!!  It stinks that they can't just tell us what's the matter

:hug:
~Chrissi

toadbriar Aug 1, 2006

Chrissi's post is great!
The dog sitter might not have been mean, but might she have, say, asked him to
sit, & then accidentally knocked something off the counter where it made a huge
racket hitting the floor & scared him? Maybe he slipped the leash while she was
walking him, & she yelled "SIT!!" in a panicked, angry-sounding voice? Neither of
those circumstances have her beating or abusing him, but might affect him in the
way you describe just the same. It might be worth asking her if anything unusual
happened, or if she'd noticed the behavior when she tended him.

I WOULD get the vet to look at him to rule out something wrong with his hips or knees.
I know those problems aren't as relevant to little dogs as big ones, but it's one variable
you'd be able to check off your list.

Can you ask him to do some other tricks, & get really really HAPPY about him doing them?
& use really super-special treats, like pieces of hotdog or cheese? & then when you're on a
roll with maybe half a dozen or so awesomely fabulous tricks performances, slip in a deliriously
happy "sit" or "down"? Maybe riding high on a happyhappyhappy confidence boost will overcome
whatever his issue is.

Poor guys - I wish they could talk.
Good luck & keep us updated!

Eileen Aug 1, 2006

All great advice, Daphne! I can't add much, but that's never stopped me! And you're not off topic--our furkids are essential.

It does sound to me as if Tucker has been intimidated, whether intentionally or not, and associates commands with fearful consequences rather than good ones. There might have been circumstances involved that went unnoticed by his human companions, but had a strong affect on him.

Since we've adopted our Border Collie, Bear, I've had to study up. I've had dogs all my life, but usually from puppyhood. Bear's six years old, a natural Alpha Male who had issues  when he came to us--too much competition, too little exercise, my sister's preparation for moving, and his own journey north had left him stressed.

He'd been very well trained, stuck to me like affectionate glue, thrived on the extra exercise, and seemed happy and stable most of the time, except when I asked him to 'sit' before 'cross'-ing streets, or to get down from the furniture. Same reaction as Tucker's.

Somebody on TT recommended Jill Fennell's The Dog Listener, which turned out to be just what I needed. I also read Cesar's Way and several other good books, and realized that my style of leadership, one that had worked well enough for 15-year-old Lucy and 9-year-old Dana, wasn't going to work for Lucy+Dana+Bear. Since Bear was refusing to sit before crossing streets, so were Dana and Lucy.

I found that I had to lighten up on some things and get more serious on others. Bear might not understand that sitting before crossing a street is meant to keep him safe, but instead of repeating the command over and over in a sharper voice, or pushing his backside down, I learned to give the command very quietly, no more than twice, and then wait, projecting cheerful and infinite patience--not easy. We spent a long time at some street corners, and let me tell you that it's not easy for a city-dweller to pass up a green light!

Now all three dogs sit (almost) automatically. I'm guessing here, but I think it's no longer an issue of 'command' for them so much as part of the necessary routine that brings them another step closer to the park. They all seem happier with my calmer and more detached form of leadership--even the old girls! There's no loss of affectionate play, but they no longer pester me for attention and I no longer feel I need to step in every time one of them barks. I'm still working on it, and probably turning into a dog myself, but I highly recommend Jill Fennell's book.

Chowlea Bears Aug 1, 2006

I think you might mean Jan Fennell the Dog Whisperer- I'm a big fan of her common sense approach.

Can't add anything except have you tried a once over with a physio or acupuncture.  The little chap may have sat awkwardly and it aggravates it each time he repeats the movement.

The 'Tellington Touch' massage technique is also very calming. It works on any animal and most humans too.  http://tteam-ttouch.com/howtodoTTouch.shtml   I use it all the time on my dogs, usually when were having a quiet time watching the news or something.  Works a treat.

Jellybelly Bears Aug 1, 2006

Hi Daphne...
We have had a similar???  situation with Spike recently...All of the sudden he is afreaid of plates. (food plates)  He cowers and backs away like we are going to attack him with them.  It turns out that we have connected it with banding a plate one time...he assosiates the loud noise with the plate and so is now afraid.  At times he will even forget his fear, then remember and back away!  its bizarre!

It may be something you can't put your finger on but something may have happened and he is reacting.  I hope he does feel better soon! 

xx Sarah

PS..I was just thinking that our smoke alarm went off recently too, before all this...wonder if we were carrying a plate at the time lol.  he was terrified!!!

Tracy Aug 1, 2006

    Poor Tucker!  It does sound like something happened.....that didn't seem like anything at the time......to really upset/frighten him that he's associating with his commands now.  There's already been lots of excellent advice here, so I really can't add anything.  I myself would go with the patient love approach that Chrissi described, and bring him back with tiny baby steps.  Keep us posted Daphne! :hug:

& Tons of  :hug:  :hug: to you and Tucker!
Tracy

Daphne Aug 1, 2006

Wow, great suggestions... some so obvious but when you are in the middle of it all it's sometimes hard to think rationally. I've been so focused on WHAT HAPPENED? to get to the fixing it part.

I called the dog sitter, asked her 30 different ways if anything happened while she was here, let her know that I was hoping she'd say yes so I could have the cause figured out... that it's not like I was going to get mad or blame this on her. She said absolutely nothing out of the ordinary happened.

Hubs and I still can't figure this out.

I CAN get him to sit this morning, sometimes, but not "down" and he wouldn't jump up on the couch or bed last night or this morning... then I got on the couch and looked out the window it sits in front of and got all excited saying there was a deer out there (he knows what a deer is) and he took a flying leap onto that couch in no time flat! To get him upstairs I used the remote on my car and made the horn beep a couple of times then said lets go upstairs and see who it is and he was up the stairs in a flash.

So, I do think it's psychological though I'm taking him to the vet this afternoon just to be sure it's not physical. Do you think he's just bored? He got through my being gone for weeks on end while my dad was in the hospital and didn't act like this. Our routine has been back to normal since. I'll admit he doesn't get enough exercise but I haven't even been able to get him to go for a walk these last few days.

Chrissi, we've dealt with the whole separation anxiety thing with Tucker.... that's why we have two dogs now (that was NOT our plan!) !! it worked tho' and I can leave them alone together w/o a problem from either one.

I think I got the Dog Whisperer book when it was mentioned here, haven't had an opportunity to read it but guess I'd better. I should have looked to see if it came on cd so I could be sewing at the same time!

Thank you so much for all of your ideas and suggestions. Every one is excellent and something is bound to work. I'll report in after the vet and will work on the suggestions you've given.

:hug:  :hug:

chrissibrinkley Aug 1, 2006

Since we've adopted our Border Collie, Bear, I've had to study up. I've had dogs all my life, but usually from puppyhood. Bear's six years old, a natural Alpha Male who had issues  when he came to us--too much competition, too little exercise, my sister's preparation for moving, and his own journey north had left him stressed.

He'd been very well trained, stuck to me like affectionate glue, thrived on the extra exercise, and seemed happy and stable most of the time, except when I asked him to 'sit' before 'cross'-ing streets, or to get down from the furniture. Same reaction as Tucker's.

Eileen,
This sounds like Brinkley too. (ES is a "cousin" to the aussie and border).  They're bred to be protective, alert and on "stand" in situations like a street corner...it's a big unorganized cattle round up to them if you think about it. So your approach was perfect to get him to see that you don't need him to be on patrol in that situation, that you have it covered and he needs to sit.  They're very much out to please us in the end.

Daphne,
The touch method is a good one.  It's very calming to any dog, esp those with confidence issues.  The idea is that the calming touch stimulates them in the right way to relax and then learn.  Another training/relating method that I adore is by Ian Dunbar.  No flashy stuff, nothing to do with power and dominance, it's all calm and very nurturing.
Just one other thought.  Did he or your other dog maybe do something that you haven't found yet...could he be guilty about something?  Some people will try to tell yah that dogs forget about something after its done...not any I've ever had.  They sulk if they know it was a doozy, esp if it's not yet discovered and they can still sense or smell it.
Let us know how it goes with the vet!

:hug:
~Chrissi

Daphne Aug 1, 2006

Chrissi,
He and Riley chewed up a rug in the Kitchen on Friday. Hubs discovered it but didn't catch them in the act but stated they were bad as he picked up the rug and gave the evil eye. He didn't make an issue of it like he normally would though. They knew they'd done wrong. I fixed the rug and it's back on the kitchen floor. I wonder if it's that. It's been AGES and AGES since they've done anything destructive. They are usually very good when it comes to only putting in their mouth what is theirs. When they have chewed the rug before and got scolded while in the act they didn't act like this for days afterwards!!!

Hmmmmm........

Perhaps going to the vet is a waste of everyone's time at this point???

psichick78 Aug 1, 2006

Daphne, doesn't sound like he's sick, vet would be for reasurrance though.

My dog is a 'chicken' and will often just get scared of something, either on his own, or for no reason at all. Sometimes even if I'm trying to give him food from my hands he can get scared. Also, he's a big baby, so he likes to pretend he's sick or hurt, act sulky and want my attention that way.

The best thing I've learned to do is ignore it. It's hard, but it works.
Right when you said he jumped off the couch 'cause of the deer, a bell rang in my head.
Sounds like he's fine, maybe something scared him, maybe not. But he could be dragging it on to get attention or whatever dogs think.

I spent $150 one night taking my dog to the vet, he wouldn't walk, he was shaking non-stop and looked very pitiful. When the vet didn't find anything wrong, he put a leash on him and walked him in the back room where he couldn't see me. And guess what! He was fine! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr, the vet said he was running, walking, sniffing etc.

So, that's my tip. Do fun things, go for a walk ( real short one ) with your other dog and not him, make him want to come. Dogs pick up alot of clues from us, so if you're relaxed and happy around him it might help. Sure does with my dog.

Good luck!

Daphne Aug 1, 2006

Relaxed and Happy!  :crackup:  :crackup:  :crackup:
I get SOOOOOO concerned when Tuck starts acting this neurotic!!! I KNOW I'm supposed to act full of confidence and calm but I end up with that whiny "Aww, Tuck, whasa matter, love?" voice anyway. And I pay way too much attention. So I could possibly be reinforcing his behavior. God, it's more challenging to raise a dog than a 2 year old sometimes!

I just took him for a walk, made him sit a couple of times along the way. He did it no problem.  :dance:  Got back home, made him sit in the driveway, no problem, got IN the house, asked him to sit while I held a treat in my hand... he wouldn't sit! GRRRR! 

Eileen Aug 1, 2006

Daphne,

It could be the rug incident! When Bear had been with us exactly one week, he reached up and snatched the Sunday Roast from the counter! When I came into the kitchen to investigate the 'thunk', I said 'NO, BEAR' in a very authoritative (but not very loud voice). That was it.

He literally 'shut down' for the next 24 hours, something my sister had told me to watch for in Border Collies. I spent most of that 24 massaging and cooing to him, until I felt I'd stolen the roast myself. This 'shutting down' probably applies to other breeds as well. Dogs is dogs.

The correction wasn't too severe, but the guilt certainly was. It was as if he'd totally confused himself by crossing the forbidden line, lost his bearings, and had to work it out somehow.

We didn't really blame the poor guy, since he'd spent the last 4 years in a vegetarian home, and probably hadn't seen that much meat ever! My husband just divided the remains of the roast among all 3 dogs and commented that at least we wouldn't have to wrap up the leftovers!

Sandra, I did mean Jan Fennell, though my book is titled The Dog Listener--maybe it's a regional publisher-related thing? In these parts, Cesar Milan is The Dog Whisperer. In any case, she's great. And I love the massage site--Thanks!

Daphne Aug 1, 2006

Lisa.... I said A two year old.... not 2 of 'em AND 3 year old!!    I don't know how you do it! You are amazing!

Well, went to the vet.... he's physically as healthy as can be. She thinks he's bored and lacking self-confidence (makes ME feel good!) So I suppose the scolding for the rug incident could have destroyed what little self confidence he did have. The vet suggested agility. SO.... we are meeting with a very good agility trainer near us in 2 weeks.... hopefully it will be cooler by then, I'll have my show over with and can concentrate on getting Tucker happy again.

I did get him to play ball with me this afternoon... a good sign as he had no interest in that over the weekend.

I'm still going to try some of the other suggestions here in the mean time with my mentally fragile woofie!

Thank you, guys!!!
Daphne

chrissibrinkley Aug 2, 2006

The vet suggested agility. SO.... we are meeting with a very good agility trainer near us in 2 weeks.... hopefully it will be cooler by then, I'll have my show over with and can concentrate on getting Tucker happy again.
Daphne

That's SO much fun!!  We did a little bit with Meadow in her last round of doggie classes, just a little bit to get a taste of what the agility classes could offer.  We're going to do it in the fall (no heat!).  Great suggestion from the vet and you guys will have a blast!  The dogs look so pleased with themselves doing all of the challenges   

:hug:
~Chrissi

Daphne Aug 2, 2006

Thanks for the positive feedback on agility. Tucker also had a taste of it at his obedience classes and loved jumping through the hoop and doing the tunnel. I'm hoping this is what he needs. I can't see our other dog wanting to 'bother' with such antics!!! They are SO different! Waiting until fall is smart... but I can't deal with Tucker's behavior until then!!! Oh well!

:hug:

Jellybelly Bears Aug 2, 2006

Oh great news Daph.  That he isn't ill that is.  And hope the agility works! 

This really reminds me of the Frasier episode where they get a dog shrink in for Eddie.  Remeber that?  lol.  ended up that Eddie wanted his barbie doll back lol  :crackup:
xx Sarah

Eileen Aug 2, 2006

They're bred to be protective, alert and on "stand" in situations like a street corner...it's a big unorganized cattle round up to them if you think about it.

:doh: Chrissi, this rings true--Bear used to scrutinize the traffic carefully, as if it was his job to get us across the street safely. He's been a country boy most of his life. Now he just chills, and scans the trees for squirrels!

Actually, I believe he could lead us across 4 lanes of rush hour traffic, except that my ancient Lucy can't cross as fast as he can.

Agility training is a great idea, and one I should look into myself. It adds discipline and concentration to activity.

So far we're ok. There are a lot of fallen trees to leap over, crawl under, and walk along in our park, and a stream where Bear can either swim or practice his fancy footwork on the rocks. He carries and looks after his squeaky ball himself, until we come to a place where we can do some flat-out ball chasing. He comes home with just enough energy left to eat!

Bonus--The fur-girls are much more active since Bear arrived--and my high blood pressure has fallen to normal, woohoo!

Daphne, I'm sure Tucker will come out of this with a bit of TLC. He's still very young.

You must not blame yourself--Vets and Pediatricians have a knack of making Moms feel inadequate. You've been under so much stress yourself lately that Tucker might be feeling a bit fragile. Under those conditions almost anything might send him into a mope.

It's very like raising children, but of a different species . . . they all have special needs, which we struggle to figure out and satisfy, but they also learn to cope with the ups and downs of family life.

JeannieB Aug 3, 2006

Hi Daphne,
I was a veterinary technician for 12 years....I understand Tuckers breed is "unique" and different in their emotions and behavior. However; as I read this post, it sounds like "text book" disc or nerve related problem. If you described this to me in an exam room at the office....the first thing we would do is x-rays of his neck and back. It sounds like he is "feeling" better regardless of what the problem is...but, if he does this again I would definately try to rule out a disc related problem...even slight inflammation can cause them a lot of discomfort. The lowered head position, not wanting to sit or jump up, snapping at a play mate instead of the usual playing;are all symptoms of discomfort. Dogs are hard to read and they want to please us...so even if it hurts,they will try to do what you ask them to.   
I would air on the side of caution with his exercise regimen until he has shown a full recovery.
  Good luck with his progress and keep us updated!
    JeannieB

Daphne Aug 3, 2006

Hi Girls,

Well, Tucker will indeed run, jump, sit, lay down etc. on his own terms.... just not when asked. He never yelps or winces when we do pick him up.

He's definitely doing a lot of moping around.... not unusual for him at times but coupled with the refusal to obey isn't 'normal'. The backing up thing too... that's what he does if we ask him to lay down, even if he's already in a sit. And jumping up on the couch or bed... he won't do it if he's asked. When I'm not looking he'll do it. I used to be a sucker and just pick him up.... I don't any more but suspect he's still waiting for that.

He's doing a lot more 'leaning' against my legs and giving more kisses than he ever has. That, if I recall, indicates submissiveness, insecurity, nervousness, guilt even. I'll have to look that up.

I just wish he'd snap out of it.

My folks have a wonderful vet where they live who takes a much deeper approach to pet care than any vet around here. This guy and his wife do chiropractic adjustments, reiki, etc. as well as traditional medicinal & diagnostic services. Might be the place to take Mr. Tucker if he doesn't improve by the end of this weekend.

Sigh.............................

JeannieB Aug 3, 2006

Daphne,
That does make me feel better! I can imagine him doing this stuff to try you....they are so smart! :crackup:  :crackup:  I had the honor of working with a lady veterinarian who specialized in accupuncture! Dogs don't usually lie about things...and after I saw a dog get up and walk after being down for three days...I am a believer! She was truly a wonderful and caring vet. she never charged her clients for the accupuncture treatments!
I really miss my doggie patients
     Bear hugs,
JeannieB :)

  PS.. I am in love with the one you made...he is adorable! If I was still working at the vet. I would show him to all our Wheaten owners!

Eileen Aug 3, 2006

Daphne, it definitely could be attitude.

Long ago we had a setter who limped only when he knew we could see him.

We boarded Lucy the Collie/Shepherd cross for the weekend of our daughter's wedding. She was fine when I collected her, but when she came home and smelled the traces of the reception all over our house and garden, she cold-shouldered me very pointedly for several days.

Daphne Aug 3, 2006

I never thought of Tucker as "smart"..... quite the opposite actually! Now I'm thinking "manipulative" might be a good word! I did just make an appt. at my parent's vet for tomorrow morning. Accupuncture is indeed something they do as well. I just hope they can determine what his problem is. At the very least, reassure me that it's nothing medical. My vet was so brief that I don't know how she'd have known either way!

I just put them in the car to go to the groomer and Tucker wouldn't even jump in.... HE LOVES to go for rides and never thinks twice about taking a flying leap into the car. The groomer asked him to sit and he did, no problem. Then she asked him to lay down and he back up and hid behind me. I'm still wondering about our dog sitter. Doesn't this sound like a fear of some sort???????

I just don't know what to think!

chrissibrinkley Aug 3, 2006

I never thought of Tucker as "smart"..... quite the opposite actually! Now I'm thinking "manipulative" might be a good word!

I just put them in the car to go to the groomer and Tucker wouldn't even jump in.... HE LOVES to go for rides and never thinks twice about taking a flying leap into the car. The groomer asked him to sit and he did, no problem. Then she asked him to lay down and he back up and hid behind me. I'm still wondering about our dog sitter. Doesn't this sound like a fear of some sort???????

I just don't know what to think!

Tucker may just be a really smart dog, he might just need his energy to be channeled into something that stimulates him; like the agility.  He might turn out to be a champ with the  agility!! 

There are dogs that hate down stays, it's a command that's not in their nature. My Brinkley will sit, stay, wait, come, back up, the whole nine yards...but a down stay:forget it.  She jumps up like a jack in the box.  It's also a submissive position and Brink's the dominant dog in the pack. Maybe that's part of it for Tucker (???). 

My dogs always jump to the car.  One time Brink wouldn't go near it and in my rush I couldn't figure it out...DUH the car was running for the air conditioning and the poor thing never jumped into a running car before...running cars are what we steer clear of.  Could your car have been on this time and he's not use to that??

Good Luck with it all!!

:hug:
~Chrissi

JeannieB Aug 3, 2006

Daphne,
   It's so hard to interpret doggies...why can't they just tell us!?! The one thing we do know is that he comes to his mommy for security...whether he's afraid or afraid of pain, he wants his mom to tell him it's OK!
Now, I can't wait to know whats wrong!!
   Best wishes for you both!
JeannieB