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Back Road BearsSo, after reading so many responses NOT in favor of this society and also hearing from a couple of it's members I just wanted to follow up my last post with this:
First: Jenny - I can see how this group appealed to you as an eBay seller and artist and have no doubt you were joining a pleasant group of folks. It simply seems that things are changing now... the structure, the requirements, perhaps the core reason for the groups existence.
Second: Shelli - I'm sure you joined under much the same situation. HOWEVER, regardless of what you perceive this group to be, the email that Bobbie got outlining the 'Society's' operations seems to conflict with your notions. Perhaps this person who is acting as spokeswoman should not be sharing such information until all the details have been ironed out. I'm sure that you would not be part of a group that seems to be presenting itself the way she has presented it.... if what you say is true, that the group is still forming and rules have not yet been set in stone. You must understand that what we have to go by is what Bobbie got in an email as you yourself have stated that you have no affiliation to Jodi or the group moderators or their planning process as it occurs behind the scenes. This group sounds secretive... who knows what they are really planning.
Third: From my own experience with an artisan group: 2 years ago I became a member of one of the oldest and most well known artisan leagues (similar to a guild or society) in the US. The jury process was a 6 month process, the application itself very lengthy, the annual membership dues are modest, there are a lot of politics going on behind the scenes and there are cliques, the benefits are fabulous and membership is indeed a status symbol. I'm not into status symbols, nor the politics nor the cliques. I'm in it because of what the League of NH Craftsmen does within the community and for it's members. We offer craft fairs like no other, booth space open only to league members and buyers flock from all over the US and Canada to attend these fairs. We also conduct workshops all the time, year round to educate the public on various forms of art. We offer seminars on everything from photography to marketing to business management software to our members. We actively participate and lead programs for children. We encourage any and everyone to apply for membership as an artisan and during the jury process those who are not at the skill level to become members are guided by 'experts' in that particular medium of art on how to improve their work and that crafter may reapply the following year. No where on my application did it ask how much money I make or insist that my art be my full-time job. No where did it say I could complete this application only because I'd been hand picked by a current member. This artisan's league is out to give artisans of all mediums a place to gather and grow, learn and make friends and provide unique opportunities to sell.
What good is this TBAS doing for anyone but themselves? Do they care about the teddy bear industry and it's artists? Have they thought about how their behavior as a society will effect other artists or the kind of image they'll present to collectors? If an eBay collector sees someone is a "Proud Member of...." and yet so many other artists on eBay are not what will they think? This whole thing could backfire on the society if careful thought isn't given to how they present themselves to the public and how they handle themselves amongst other artists. This could be a very counter productive venture.
No, I'm not saying this because I wouldn't qualify for membership..... even though I had a movie contract earlier this year for my work which paid plenty, I put all other orders on hold for 4 months for that project so i wouldn't have the required monthly income, nor would I share it any way. I'm against this society because it's presenting itself in a way that is far from being what I believe the teddy bear industry, heck, teddy bears for that matter, to be all about.
Yup, to each his own. Some will have an elite sorority, some will be surrounded by friends who don't judge eachother based on income or who they know. Either way we'll choose what makes us happy, we'll find our collectors.... after all.... we've determined in past threads that it's mostly the face of a bear that sells it to a collector. Not a little "I'm a member of...." logo in an auction listing.
Those TTers and former TTers who are members of TBAS: You began with this 'society' in it's infancy... I sincerely hope it grows to be all you stand for and believe in!
:hug:
Posts: 36I am just a collector, but there are several artists whose work I am just not drawn to, but other people love. I have been a doll collector for years, but I honestly couldn't tell you who one member of NIADA is. When I am thinking about what to buy, I am looking for what I am drawn to and something that I personally think is beautiful. I don't pay attention to what groups people are affiliated with. I know that winning awards etc., is a huge honor, but I would have missed some great pieces from new or up and coming artists that are now a treasured part of my collection if I thought about that. The same with the bears. I know that all collectors are not the same, but I pay more attention to the actual artistry than what titles people have. Again, this is just my thoughts.
Back Road BearsYour thoughts, as a collector are very important here, Patty.
As I've told you before, we wouldn't be making teddy bears at ALL if it wasn't for collectors like you!
It's the views and buying habits of collectors that we all must take into consideration.
Canna Bear PaintHello, anonymous angry person 
I'm not sure what value a lecture on ethics from an anonymous source has, but I'll play along with no ill will directed at anyone.
A few thoughts...
I think the main problem here is that the requirements as posted are rubbing people the wrong way. You get an exclusive invitation to join this club if an unknown group of people decides that you are original, professional and make an arbitrary amount of money on eBay. Huh? I hope that if anything good comes of the chaos on this thread, that the members of this group will realize that their requirements need to be re-thought out. I imagine nobody's intention was to give a negative impression, and it seems that it has.
The thought that this group is "none of our business" unfortunately is also not the case. If there is danger that any group may purport itself to be THE group for original, professional and desirable bear artists, then that affects ALL bear artists with the implication that other artists are inferior. I am NOT saying that this group does this, but because I can't quite figure out what this group does or how it sees itself, I can't rule it out either.
And if this group does not want to make itself look like it is more interested in money than artistry, they should probably make a point of judging admittance on ABILITY and not include MONEY in the requirements. Other than saying that the work must be original, two of your top requirements are about money.
Cheers,
Kelly
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)Be happy to FORWARD the emails; I cut & pasted them in their entirity along with my replies.
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)AAacccchhhh - hit Send instead of Spell Check. I'm leaving for AZ in a few hours - not done packing yet! Yikes.
But please don't doubt my word - I do not alter emails.
Go to eBay>Advanced Search>endorian>and ask her yourselves. Please!!
I did not even know her name until I took a convoluted path through Feedback to find her name.
Anything posted in an email is open to inspection, (through many nefarious methods, all unknown to me) unless the author requests it to be kept private.
Storytime Bears" kinda snobby for my taste"
"Sounds a bit elitist"
"Sounds a bit elitist and too subjective for me"
"Snooty, Snooty, Snooty! No way on earth would I be a member of such a snobby 'Society' - just the word alone shouts "Our bowel movements don't stink... yours do!" Just WHO do they think they are and who made them so 'special'?" "society snobs!" "don't need to be a member of some snobby club to get my bears sold"
"I personally cannot help but feel a little upset that a bunch of people think that their bears are soo much better than other peoples. How did that happen? Why are they better?
"If the purpose really was to set a standard in the industry, I'm not too sure i would want these people to set any standard for me."
Boy the waters are rough but I will wade in.....
on this issue, since it is about the group I formed, About 4 years ago I was talking to a really great ebay artist and asked her if she had ever entered for a Toby or Golden Teddy, she said no, but felt like she was going to, because it would be a feather in her cap to win, but as an artist she hated pitting one artists work against another because she felt everyone's work, if it was their best, should not be considered unworthy if not chosen. She still has not entered, then another artist I Love had entered for a Toby, got nominated but did not win, she was so crushed she almost stopped making bears, and that would have been such a shame for the bear world. I think the Toby and Golden Teddy are a wonderful way for the public to choose their favorites, I think they have a valued place in the world of Teddy bears. But I also thought there should be something to acknowledge those excellent artists that don't enter contests, a kind of pat on the back from fellow artists.
I had talked to JoAnne Hardin 3 1/2 years ago about how we should form a group to acknowledge those artists that work very hard at their craft, something that did not involve winner and losers. Like a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, after several conversations we were unable to figure out how to form a group or where we would do it, I even looked into buying a website, but we let it die.
Over the years I have seen so many talented , hard working, wonderful artists keep working every day to bring to ebay high quality, wonderful works of art, yes they get money for that effort, but to be honest, that was not what I valued most, I loved when another artist I admired would write and say "Way to go girl, great job!" because what I do is, put my heart and soul into my work and when my effort is recognized by a fellow artist, I am walking on cloud 9 all day. I always try to do that too, I write to fellow artists all the time complimenting their work because I know they are putting their heart and soul in their work too. I am so proud that a mostly women involved industry is so successful, I get giddy when I see an artist I love do well on an auction, because when that artist does well, it helps all of us, it raises the prices for the works of art we create each and every week.
About 4 or 5 weeks ago I made one of my storytime mice with a mouse house and listed it in "doll house miniatures" a very nice lady emailed me and asked if I wanted to join a miniature doll house group, I went to the group and they have about a thousand members which is really great for them and I was honored to be asked. But what got me really excited was, I did not realize eBay had offered the ability to form groups until then, well I jumped on it and went to google to find a bear group name that was not taken and when I put in Teddy Bear Artist Society I was thrilled nothing came up. I formed the group and emailed a few people and asking for names of artists that stood out as people who don't copy others and who puts up quality pieces on a regular basis(never about who made the most money). Myself and other artist talked about what we would like to see happen as a group. I set the list number at 21. I invited 21 to join, 18 did, and then I asked for people to volunteer to be moderators, those are the ones that do the dirty work, like pounding out the requirements for membership, we then will have the membership vote on accepting or turning down requirements, if they are not passed then we go back to the drawing board, no one person decides anything, we are in the baby stage of this group. We had voted on a logo and some artist displayed the logo with pride, to our amazement we had people interested in joining the minute the logo was displayed, we were thrilled that this just may take off and be a really positive thing for bear artists.
The first person to ask to join was someone who sold boyds bears mostly but had made a total of 3 bears in her life, this woman was a really sweet person, she was looking to join a bear group, but I didn't feel this was the group that would be the best fit, she had told me she wanted to learn how to make top selling bears, I told her how great Teddy Talk was, what a wonderful place to learn tips and get support from fellow artists. And to those of you that had defended our right to form a group and give it a chance to see what it turns out to be, before judging it, thank you , you are the people who will help this woman become a better bear maker by sharing your knowledge. You are what makes Teddy Talk a good place to learn this craft.
I wrote to the other moderators and asked for help in getting membership guidelines in place, I came up with the list that bobbie posted before the moderators had finished their input, I didn't want Bobbie to have to wait , thinking I was ignoring her, and stated that they were some requirements but you did not have to have all of them, these are a rough draft but I wanted those asking to join, to know that this is a group for serious bear artists, I was going to put that if you had not coughed up a fur ball the size of a golf ball, while trimming the muzzles of your bears, you need not apply:0) (I don't mean to be silly but I really have coughed up fur balls, OK maybe not golf ball size)
We did not make membership private, ebay does that, because it is a by invitation group. And no one member decides on who gets in or not , each member has one vote. In this group you do not have to chat on the boards or post pictures of your work, all you have to do is bring to ebay your best effort , go that extra mile and we as a group will pat you on the back and say "You so girl!" and hopefully one day "You go boy!"
I know this is really long and for that I am sorry. I love making bears I don't feel I am more important than anyone else, I am such a fan of so many artists, I think we are the luckiest people on earth to be part of such a wonderful historical character as the Teddy Bear.
Bear Hugs
Jodi Moisan
Kran-Beary'sHi Jodi,
I'm so sorry that you're feeling that the waters are rough, especially since you've obviously worked so hard to create something positive.
I certainly hope that no one reading these posts is feeling 'bad' about them. After all, isn't this a place where everyone can put in their two cents, for what it's worth? We're all adult enough to reason through the posts and pull out what's important.
I do think though Jodi, that the negativism is a result of the PERCEPTION of 'high society' that comes with the groups requirements. Perhaps after reading how so many people perceive them, you may agree that perhaps they need another revamping?
Just a thought, and not meant to be mean. Again I say that joining groups is great. It's fun to share, and it's wonderful to get a pat on the back.
hugs,
nt
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)Jodi, We were writing at the same time. I hope you did not feel that I was dishonoring the respect you showed me in replying, by posting your unedited responses to me: I had actually quite forgotten that I'd written for information when your first came through yesterday.
I apologize here & now for any ill will generated toward your efforts on anything I said. It was not my intention - originally queried for information.
If you can make this a Artisan/Guild for furthering what's inside of each of us, more the better!
I think the money issue - and the ball park figure - made most everyone sit up and Blink, twice....
After your explanation, I can see how it would weed out some substandard or manufactured work, though eBay is by far one of the worst evaluators of the quality of work.
In light of keeping the group to a higher standard, this is still cool. There definitely are lists for beginners as well as more advanced skillpersons.
When I started in 1990, one of the biggest issues was Who should be called/call themselves an Artist? It was a general opinion that if you got more than the minimum price or had won a competition, then you may call yourself an artist. I still don't - that's an adjective only for others to apply to any work I'd do, but that's just me.
Even after all of those nominations and awards, I don't see it affecting my bottom line so to me they are personal satisfaction and perhaps a little name recognition.
From a personal standpoint, I belong to over 100 yahoo groups, about 1/3 - 1/2 are related to my business. The eBay groups I belong to are not as easy to navigate and some are private and so small that there are only 2 members. DH & me!
It's a private list to remind ourselves of tax bills due, Dr appts, change furnace filters and car oil changes, etc.. Yahoo is very easy to use and can be set up as Private and By Invitation Only.
As you iron out your group guidelines, I hope you'll continue to post, just to show the work that goes into forming an endeavour/organization like this.
I'm not even spell-checking - gotta get the clothes into the schleppers!
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)Addition - (why do I proofread after it's posted.) Our private DH & Me group is a yahoo group, not in eBay's system.
I have to say in support of Jodi and what she is setting out to achieve, that no-one sets out to rub people up the wrong way..(unless you work at my salon then everyone does it all the time LOL!!) and in making judgements about criteria for members of such groups it's easy , while not exactly getting it wrong, to not get it quite right.
I am only in two groups plus Bears and Buds and constantly feel guilty about the time spent with those so I would get nothing done if I were in any more.
I say well done Jodi for starting it up...more power to your elbow girl. I hope TBAS becomes what you hope it will be and your honest intentions are realised. I think that membership invitation is in a way quite a good thing..I have been in many open membership groups where few , despite being members, ever post..and if I ever posted I got no response. There are also groups were, because of strong cliques one feels uncomfortable straight away. So to have a group that by the simple fact that membership is by initial invitation means that members feel that they are valued is a definite bonus in my book. So the feeling of exclusion can occur in all types of groups some folks feel ignored or plain singled out...so I feel Jodis choice is a good one in that all members feel equal and worth something.
I still won't display the logo because I don't feel that I am justified in that yet because the group has not achieved anything collectively ..and I mean that in a nice way..( except perhaps a little notoriety...LOL!!!) but I am proud that Jodi invited me to join such a nice group of like-minded people.
Thanks for the explanations! It didn't at first register with me that this was specifically an Ebay group. I tend to see the teddy bear industry as fairly global and don't really pay too much attention to Ebay. After all, there are so many outstanding bear artists who don't choose to use Ebay to market themselves, Ebay can only give a small window into the teddy bear industry. I think it's great to set aspirational standards, but to contain them within a specific elite group is potentially very limiting overall.
Posts: 1,836on this issue, since it is about the group I formed, About 4 years ago I was talking to a really great ebay artist and asked her if she had ever entered for a Toby or Golden Teddy, she said no, but felt like she was going to, because it would be a feather in her cap to win, but as an artist she hated pitting one artists work against another because she felt everyone's work, if it was their best, should not be considered unworthy if not chosen. She still has not entered, then another artist I Love had entered for a Toby, got nominated but did not win, she was so crushed she almost stopped making bears, and that would have been such a shame for the bear world. I think the Toby and Golden Teddy are a wonderful way for the public to choose their favorites, I think they have a valued place in the world of Teddy bears. But I also thought there should be something to acknowledge those excellent artists that don't enter contests, a kind of pat on the back from fellow artists.
had talked to JoAnne Hardin 3 1/2 years ago about how we should form a group to acknowledge those artists that work very hard at their craft, something that did not involve winner and losers. Like a Good Housekeeping seal of approval, after several conversations we were unable to figure out how to form a group or where we would do it, I even looked into buying a website, but we let it die.
Over the years I have seen so many talented , hard working, wonderful artists keep working every day to bring to ebay high quality, wonderful works of art, yes they get money for that effort, but to be honest, that was not what I valued most, I loved when another artist I admired would write and say "Way to go girl, great job!" because what I do is, put my heart and soul into my work and when my effort is recognized by a fellow artist, I am walking on cloud 9 all day. I always try to do that too, I write to fellow artists all the time complimenting their work because I know they are putting their heart and soul in their work too. I am so proud that a mostly women involved industry is so successful, I get giddy when I see an artist I love do well on an auction, because when that artist does well, it helps all of us, it raises the prices for the works of art we create each and every week.
Thank you Jodi for taking the time to further explain the beginnings and path of TBAS. I was more interested in the monetary piece and you've explained that it's not a big piece of the group and that this group is only a few weeks old at this point.
In reading all of the posts in this thread and in other current threads, right now I'm still catching the piece about awards and self value as an artist. You mention an artist not entering larger scaled contests for dislike in competing with peers ....another artist nearly leaving the art because of perceived rejection in not being nominated or winning. That's just so sad really. But this is where I think a lot of the passionate postings and replies came from....the bullet points of entry for TBAS. Now that you've written out, a few of those bullet points seem to go slightly against what you're striving for. You've stated the bullet points were a rough draft and not yet set in stone, so maybe the feedback can assist you and the others in creating solid criteria that truly reflects your groups intentions. The monetary piece (seemed to be a strong point for readers) seems insignificant if the quality of the art is truly the driving factor. You began by wanting to congratulate artists who don't enter contests but "a toby or GT nominations is helpful". I'm sure these are just wrinkles that need further ironing, as a fledgling group. I truly wish you the best of luck in creating a group that supports the ideas of "utmost respect and integrity for artists". I think that's what it boils down to respect for the art...and art is subjective, passionate and opinionated. Sometimes the most under rated artists are those who surprise the pants off of everyone... so no matter you're affiliation, accolation, or artistic situation just keep doing what makes you happy. If TBAS makes it's members happy then you have every right to be happy with it.
Personally I'm going to try out the awards, and I hope ebay treats me well, maybe I'll join a group or guild.......but I'm not making or breaking myself on any of them. They'll be sprinkles on my Sundae, but you don't always need the sprinkles to have an amazing Sundae
:hug:
~Chrissi
you don't always need the sprinkles to have an amazing Sundae
Blasphemy! No sprinkles?!? Woman, you need sprinkles AND whipped cream! AND hot fudge!
Criminies...
Posts: 1,836you don't always need the sprinkles to have an amazing Sundae
Blasphemy! No sprinkles?!? Woman, you need sprinkles AND whipped cream! AND hot fudge!
Criminies...
:crackup: only recently did I find most of what it takes to make and wheat free dairy free sundae...and YES i did manage to find sprinkles...rainbow and chocolate (organic even)!! (whip cream's the tough one....nothing really substitutes that one 
) :crackup: :crackup:
:hug:
~Chrissi
Luxembears"
I love making bears I don't feel I am more important than anyone else, I am such a fan of so many artists, I think we are the luckiest people on earth to be part of such a wonderful historical character as the Teddy Bear.
Bear Hugs
Jodi Moisan
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I ditto your sentiment exactly Jodi.
I don't have a lot of time to post these days as my schedule is overbooked at the moment but I do try to pop in when I can.
I can say that Jodi is an absolute doll with a heart of gold and I am honored to be a part of her group.
Her quote at the top of this post summs it up perfectly. 
Melbourne, AustraliaIf I have a criticism of it, it's that it's an ebay group...and not everyone sells on ebay so you automatically exclude those who don't sell on ebay.
And there are a lot of bloody good artists that don't rely on ebay for their sales!
Such a shame that this group are going to miss out!
Storytime BearsHi All
I understood what you all are saying about putting the money earned requirement, that was a tough one for me, that's why we made the list the way it was and stated that you don't need all requirements, I was the one that put a dollar amount to it, because how do you judge someone's passion.
I feel the beginning bear makers have so much passion but their level of work is not where it will one day be, when I first began, I ate, slept, thought about nothing else but making bears, but OH my gosh, I look at my first bears and say "Hey look, Mohair turds" They sold for 24.00, most likely by someone who wanted to take the bear apart for the mohair, as I developed my craft and worked very hard to get better, the collectors rewarded me by bidding more, now my work sells for a whole lot more. The dollar amount was put in, to let those that are beginners or those that are just not serious about it, look at the dollar amount and go "Hey I am not there yet" or "boy this isn't the group for me".
When I first started I had the same passion, as let's say Shelli, but if you set my first pieces next to Shellis current work you would again go "What is that mohair turd doing next to Shellis beautiful bear" It took me 8 years to get where I am today and I in the beginning would not have qualified to be in this group, we want to have a group where those that have worked long and hard, have reached the top of their game be recongnized by their peers for their hard work and talent. Some people catch on quicker then others, that is why there is no "years in bearmaking" requirement.
I do agree and we have talked about how it would be nice to open this group up to artists outside of ebay, I am in complete agreement there are tons of extremely talented artists that have never done ebay, I went to the Washington DC show, where the Golden Teddies were awarded, and the artists there did such wonderful outstanding work, you better believe those artist should be included, but how? It wasn't until ebay offered a group opportunity that we were able to get this thing off the ground. Since it is on ebay, you have to be an ebay member. After going and seeing the show in Washington, I loved the fact the artists were able to be face to face, you get to meet the collectors, it was wonderful, I decided to do my very first show, on October 14th the Kohler Doll and Bear show. My hat is off to those artists that do only shows, I have found it to be really hard to get enough stock ready.
EBay is a wonderful way for an artist to market their own work, I owned a toy store and sold my bears there but I had to pay rent to someone and I never sold to anyone outside of my area, on ebay I have sold to collectors all over the world, I know you can go thru a shop but I am a tightwad, I don't want to pay someone to sell my work, I am not saying there is one method of marketing your work any better then the other, ebay just works really well for me, Hey where else can I make and sell my work in my Jammies :0)
As this group grows I do think we will figure a way to go outside of ebay to acknowledge talented artists, but I also do feel, ebay will continue grow as a venue for bear artists and more artists will become ebay only artists. As I stated in my first post, this group is in it's baby stage,as a child grows it will have bumps and bruises when it learnes to walk, so will this group, I am really proud and excited about this group and I really see it as something that will be truely wonderful.
Bear Hugs
Jodi Moisan
BrisbaneJodi, while there are a lot of differing opinions about this. it seems to me like you have the right idea...especially if the money part is flexible as you say. Hopefully one day the group will be able to be expanded outside of ebay.....and I really hope that one day my work will be of a standard to be able to qualify. It's something to aim for anyway.... .
In the meantime good luck with the early formation of your group!!!
