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Storytime BearsShill bidding on ebay is a hot button issue, now that ebay has put in place the new hidden bidder feature on all of their auctions, and I think as an artist I find shill bidding to be damaging to our whole business, when collectors see it happening, it makes them leary of other well deserved high priced bears, even if the artists work is clearly wonderful. I am not talking about someone who has done it once or twice, maybe they just don't know it's wrong, I am talking about the people who do it over and over.
What's your feeling on this topic?
SanguineCreationsWhat is shill bidding?
I don't know what it is either. Tell us!
Storytime Bearsaccording to ebay here is what shill bidding is:
"Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller’s item information not available to the general Community. Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay.
Because family members, roommates and employees of sellers have a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community, they are not permitted to bid on items offered by the seller – even if their sole intent is to purchase the item. Family members, roommates or employees may purchase items from a seller without violating this policy simply by using purchase options – such as Buy It Now – which do not involve bidding."
You know every artist I know, myself included, have had that bear on ebay that you spend 60 dollars making it, 20 dollars to list it in the featured listing area and many hours making it, it sits at a price far less then what it cost to make, and you didn't make it a reserve auction, I know I have felt like calling a friend and say Help!!!!!! bid on my bear!!!!!!!!! But I don't, because that is the chance I take on a no reserve auction. And I will not condemn someone for doing that once or twice, it is the person that does it over and over again that I think is wrong.
Storytime BearsJennifer this is so funny, I went to your website just last night and loved it! what a cool site!
Bear hugs
Jodi
Shill bidding is wrong. Period.
Newcastle, OntarioHi Jodi,
Shill bidding is wrong - PERIOD! If it artificially increases the price of an auction product and that results in another customer having to pay more for the product, whether it's a bear or anything else, isn't it a type of fraud?
I'm glad you posted ebay's interpretation - I did not know that family members were not allowed to bid on an item up for auction. Do they mean family "in the same house"? I've bid on a couple of my nieces auctions, but she's in Ottawa and I'm in the Toronto area, and I bid because I wanted the item and both times I won.
hugs,
Brenda
Newcastle, OntarioShelli -what is it you say when two people exactly the same thing at the same time? LOl!
hugs,
Brenda
GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE!! 
We must have been typing simultaneously because I was responding to Jodi's last post. Funny!
Here is a better definition: a person who acts as a decoy or confederate of a barker, peddler or gambler in order to influence bystanders to bid, buy, bet etc...
they are usually friends or relatives of ebay sellers who put in phony bids to drive up the price... they know they will not have to buy the product at the end of the auction... the seller will notify the next lowest bidder that they have won, usually claiming non payment by the winning bidder.. (their buddy)... and voila... the second highest bidder just bought somebody's product for more than they would have...... in this case...a bear. Actually it goes on quite a bit even without the hidden bidder option...
Boy.... I was typing reaaaaalllly slow! hahahah u girls got in several posts while I was thinking....... geeeeez
Storytime BearsBrenda, I see nothing wrong if you do it a couple times and you truly are buying the item, most people don't know what shill bidding is and if your business is run through ebay and I don't see that as an issue, it's the ones that do it over and over again and you just know something is not right. lets say I have sister in laws that live out of state , they see something you have made bid on it and buy it, they do not know they just shill bid, this in my eyes is not wrong, now if they do it over and over and over and over then that starts looking really wrong.
Wild Thyme OriginalsWrong.... wrong... wrong..... 
I'm always the first to cheer when ANYBODY'S bear fetches a good price on eBay, because I think it's a fabulous thing for all teddy artists! When I HAVE seen bears fetch an artificially inflated price as a result of obvious shilling, it juts breaks my heart. 
What an awful thing to do to the people who are willing to part with their hard earned money for your bears. There are some truly wonderful collectors out there in "eBay land." Shill bidding amounts to fraud, nothing less, and I think most people who DO it probably eventually get what's coming to them.... At least I hope so!
It kind of reminds me of that saying... "Don't poop where you eat!" I think it's generally said with a more vulgar word though! 
It's so true though. I just don't understand how people can justify doing that to people in their minds.
I was really worried that we'd see a huge increase in shilling when eBay changed to their new "Bidder1 policy." Really, I think (at least I HOPE) that it isn't occurring that much. I think most bear artists are good and decent people, just as I belive that most collectors are. I would certainly HATE for a few bad apples to ruin the proverbial barrel. I'd hate to see collector confidence drop as a result of the actions of a few despicable people.
eBay is claiming that they have better shill bidding detection methods in place now. I certainly hope that is true.
Kim Basta
Storytime BearsKim your saying cracked me up!!!!! and I completely agree with what you said
I totally agree with you guys 100% I have seen some less desirable bears go for outrageous inflated amounts and wonder how!!!!
On the other side of the coin, what happens if the same collector keeps buying your bears, or a few in a row, you develop a repoire with them and consider them your friends, is this going to be looked at by eBay as Shill bidding?
Hugs,
Krista
Storytime BearsNo I don't think that is shill bidding at all, thats what we want, is to build up a fan base.
In my humble opinion, shill bidding shows a lack of respect for your collectors, the industry and yourself. It's just plain wrong, no matter how one would like to justify it.
Warmest bear hugs, :hug:
Aleta
Posts: 1,836Shill Bidding: It's wrong. It IS fraud.
But I'd like to ask...how does anyone know it's happening over and over and over? Is it an assumption based on what we're seeing artistically..that the item couldn't see that many bids or that kind of price? Or were there bidding patterns that were being followed prior to this invisible system? I guess I'm curious as to why we're assuming that its happening over and over. (no, I'm not naive I know there are people who will try to play the system) But Ebay's pretty much an open book..there are the featured listing and there are not. If you're going to want to create a "buzz" you're going to list on featured. So we're talking about featured listings here, correct...otherwise it's not worth it to shill (who's seeing it..there's no buzz). It would have to be those that are listed regularly, with constant high bidding to be obvious. We're talking our industry so it's artist bears and not an ebay concern in general. So....we've got artist bears, consistent featured listings, and constant high bids. Are we going to look at all of the artist that fit this description and say who deserves it and who doesn't? Who's standards are we using? I hope not mine because even the most accredited artists in the book wouldn't pull $1000 from me... BUT from someone out there in the global economy they do in fact.
I guess my point is this....Who's the judge? What's fueling the concerns? If eBay is used to grab at international markets that are huge and vast and unmeasurable than we couldn't possibly understand the buying wants of each and every buyer. What tickles a buyers fancy might not tickle ours and might lead to assumptions. Serious and legitimate concerns should most definitely be reported to eBay so that they can investigate and address all cases of fraud. But if that's not the case we could be stepping on toes right now that don't deserve the squashing.
:hug:
~Chrissi
Kran-Beary'sShill bidding is fraud. If you were to do it at a live auction, you could be arrested, and it's not different online. It's just harder to catch people; especially when they can hide behind Door Number 1 and Door Number 2 etc.
Here's the Canadian version of the Criminal Code offence. I'm positive the American version will be very similar:
Section 380(2) Everyone who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, with intent to defraud, affects the public market price of stocks, shares, merchandise or anything that is offered for sale to the public is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years.
hugs,
nt
Storytime BearsI have researched and found that there are laws protecting people from shill bidding that are outside of ebay which states:
A Frequently Asked Question:
Have eBay members really been criminally prosecuted for Shill Bidding?
Answer:Individuals who engaged in Shill Bidding have been prosecuted and convicted of misdemeanor and felony offenses. They have also received large penalties, including fines and restitution of damages totaling over $100,000. eBay cooperates fully with Law Enforcement investigations.
I found this info at http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa? … 1000046213
I think it is wonderful that the law, and not only ebay, have taken action on this practice.
Storytime BearsBidding patterns help to determine if it is done and that is one part ebay looks at. I agree we shouldn't step on anyones toes, but we also shouldn't turn a blind eye to it going on, by doing that we are hurting collectors. But I too have seen some bears go way over what I could afford , which sadly to say for me is a lot of them 
but wonderful for the artist 
, I get giddy when I see a great artist doing well. Sometimes I think I get more excited about that then when my own does well. Also I have seen some bears that may not float my boat do well but I can see where they can get high bids, say for example, and I'll use what I make as an example, I make a mouse and some people, Hate mice, which is a lot of people, I understand that my mice would be something, these people would never buy. But some people LOVE mice, thank my lucky stars :pray: they do. I think it is a combo of things that makes it obvious it is going on.
This is a fascinating subject and something I have been concerned about for some time. I know we are all stepping delicately around the issue, but there DOES seem to be something odd going on with artist bears on Ebay that I don't see in any other category. By which I mean that some items do seem to sell for eye-popping amounts that are far in excess of where the rest of the market seems to be. And several times, I have seen those same bears come back onto Ebay some months or even a year later and they make a fraction of what they originally sold for. I am not suggesting that shill bidding has been employed in all these case, but I really don't understand how a bear can be worth $1000 today and only $100 tomorrow... I personally view Ebay as a necessary marketing tool and one that can't be ignored, but I am very very wary of it!
Best wishes,
Christine
Storytime BearsI have seen some deserving "breakout bears" that go off the charts by some established top selling artists and I can see where it can and has happen, and I, like I said before am standing up cheering when they do, and the artist then goes on to sell bears at a more normal price, which I think is to be expected. But I agree it's wrong if that bear then comes back and sells for a tiny amount . It's funny, one time I had a bear that I had put a reserve on ($200 dollars), the bids hit $75 and just sat there until the end. Well I relist it several months later with no reserve , starting bid $1.00 and it goes for $770 . I fell off of my chair when I went to look at it. Now that the new private bidder thing it makes me more wary of it, and it steams me I have no choice as a seller to have it, I have thought of seeing if legally they can make you have it.
Storytime BearsOK say an hypothetical artist lists something and it just sits there with no bids for awhile then they go private and bam they get bids, what does everyone think about that? does it look wrong???????? or is that just me
Chrissi, I agree it should be looked at equally, no if's ands or buts
Posts: 1,836Oh no I agree, no blind eyes..report it all to ebay for investigation. It should be investigated by eBay and stopped if/when happening. But isn't "something" making one look for patterns before that bids link is clicked for further research. (??)
Are/were we noting patterns for all artists..even those who's work is accredited and who are considered established? I guess I'd like to see that all are treated the same regardless of what is perceived as a worthy price fetcher. And with the new system wouldn't that have to happen? If there's questioning of the one bear/seller wouldn't you have to question the other...even though it may appeal to you and make sense? Fraud is criminal. The standards in addressing need to be the same across the board, assumptions either way can't be made.
:hug:
~Chrissi
EDIT: we were typing at the same time when you posted your new question. Well, if it went private maybe the same thing that happened as with your $75-$750 bear. Luck, different day, different traffic pattern for buyers ....who knows without a factual investigation. Otherwise it's all just assumptions and those can be wrong. If it's fraud get them outta there. But if it's still happening and it's been investigated it's not be proven fraud then it is what it is....ebay.
