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sewing starsokay, this may sound like a dumb question, so please forgive me, but i am still learning.... 
when it comes to measuring the size of bears, i assumed it was the total length of the bear, from head to feet, but i saw a couple listed that actually measured them seated, so it was from head to bottom. is there is a standard way to measure? just curious, and i do apologize for asking what seems like a really silly question...
I measure the same way too. Head to toe, excluding ears, them head to bottom when seated. I know if the bear has bent legs then you have to account to for the bend. So measure foot to bend(knee) then knee to top of leg. Then from top of leg to head. Does that makse any sense 
Waggle BearsI also measure the full length but also take a "sitting"" measure. But that's really a good question because I've never had anyone tell me exactly how to do it.
Burlison BearsWow. I've never done a sitting measure before. I measure from toe to head and never include the ears in the measuring.
-Eliza
sewing starsthanks for all the imput! i am glad i asked, because i had been measuring minus the ears, and wasn't sure if that was right for not either. glad to know my instincts were correct! 
ToadBriarif it's a (non lop) bunny I include the height of the ears 
If someone
has a tallish hat I will do a measure with and without, too.
if it is a bear who will readily stand on his own I just do head to bottom of foot.
otherwise I show a standing AND a seated measure.
BruinwerksThis isn't a dumb question at all! In a competition situation, knowing how to measure might be the difference between first prize and disqualification. If its for something specific - always ask how they want it measured!
Cheryl
Back Road BearsWay back when.... as far as I recall... only the full height was given... top of head to bottom of foot. The "sitting" height is something I've only seen in recent years.
I was taught by my teddy teacher (who has been in this business for 25 years) that to properly measure the height of a bear I was to put a ruler on the table, at the left side, with the ruler flush to the edge of the table. Then lay the bear on the ruler, head flush with end of ruler and edge of table on left. Then be sure he's lying straight and place his heel down firmly on the ruler..... where the heel lies is the length of the bear.
Anyone else do it this way or have a different way????
Jellybelly BearsI state which way my bears are measured so there is no confusion...some of my bears have bent legs, so sitting height is more accurate, some have very long legs but are really tiny, so measuring the bear from top to toe is misleading, again, I like the sitting height...so I suppose its up to each artist to decide 
my old fashioned bears I measure from top to toe.
Oh, anyone have bendy rulers? They are pretty cool to measure with, and fun too 
I measure like you Daphne. I've never given a seated measurement - but I don't worry about the edge of a table (mine's round!) I just measure the bear horizontally from heel to top of head.
BrisbaneI measure both unless a bear is made to stand only then I only give the head to toe measurement but if a bear is made to be seated I give a seated measurement too.
'Bear' Bottoms OriginalsTo measure standing, I stand the bear up and place a ruler behind him (much like how you measure little kids with a yard stick) and get at eye level and read the measurement at the top of the head. If my bear has great big ol ears that seem to extend up further than his head, I state that it doesn't include his ears. I also measure both ways, sitting and standing, as I never know how the collector might want to display the bear and might have just a particular height to fit a bear (say a short shelf or something....)
Kimberly W.
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)It has been only recently that the seated measurements begun to be given, as Daphne mentioned. Coming from the miniature side of things, I see it more often given for minis.
Frankly, I don't care for it: as the standing measurement has been the standard way that has been listed, this new way to state a height is often given for a bear that is larger than one would expect: i.e., it's very much more difficult to get the same amount of & quality of details into a smaller 'package'.
When they're shown in a bear measured seated, it's easy to 'imply' by virtue of the proportions that one's vision is used to seeing, that the bear is smaller than it actually is.
I do see bears that are stated as being 2" tall, and whether attributed to standing or seated, when it's been photographed in the bear maker's hand and covers up more than 3 fingers, it's pretty obvious that it's at least 3" or more.
To imply that a bear is 'smaller' than standard/standing lengths, by stating a seated size, is just plain wrong. It's like 'sinning' (used in a generic sense!! please don't jump on me) by Omission rather than Commission.
Posts: 1,836Whether I'm listing information on a mini or a larger bear I always give the "head to toe" measurement and the seated height "bottom to head" measurement. I figure the more information the buyer has the better and the more information I can supply for a happy transaction the better. Plus I don't know how the bear will be displayed or whatnot. I agree that giving inaccurate info or misleading info is wrong...but that's for anything sold. Auctions open up a "don't tell unless they ask" arena and that's unfortunate. I give as much info as possible and make it really clear that any and all questions are more than welcome. Building trust is all you have when you're selling by photos and a description alone.
:hug:
~Chrissi
I usually give a head to toe measurement, but when the bear is designed with bent knees I give the seated measurement and state X"Seated due to bent knees, but if he/she were able to stand unassisted they would be X"
When measuring my pups I give a nose to tail measurment and a toe to head measurment as well.
Hugs,
Krista
AlmostBearsi mesure seated only because i dont sell so i am not after accuracy or giving all the possible information
i usaully start writing the post then go to put the mesurments in and realise ive forgotten so i dash upstairs whip out the tape and hold it up behind the bear and take the mesurment - im not trying to be misleading or make out that my bear is bigger/smaller that it really is...im just aiming to pre-empt the "what size is it?" question..IF..i ever get to the stage where my bears are put for sale i will be sure to take into account all ive read in this post..and provide accurate mesurments most likely with both sitting and standing
thanks everyone for your veiws on mesuring - its been interesting to read and somthing id never really thought about before..
Natasha
Frankly, I don't care for it: as the standing measurement has been the standard way that has been listed, this new way to state a height is often given for a bear that is larger than one would expect: i.e., it's very much more difficult to get the same amount of & quality of details into a smaller 'package'.
A very loud AMEN to that Bobby....I am so over mini artists who measure everything seated and mostly don't state that they do so. It can only be confusing for buyers.
there is one seller who really cheeses me off by selling 'micro' minis that measure just under 2" according to her auction title...when you read further down her auction pieces her bears are measured seated and standing they are often about 2.5 inches and bigger which is not micro. It probably doesn't seem like it to 'big' bear makers but there is a world of difference between a 2.5" bear and a 1.5" bear. My favourite bear I make is sized 1.75" standing and I don't even call that size micro, though I possibly could.
Although, I have to say as one who has teensy hands and fingers...my bears often suprise people by being much smaller than they seem in my photos. I need to find me a person with normal sized hands for photography purposes!
Back Road BearsJust out of curiosity..... has anyone ever stated just the "standing" measurement and then been asked what the seated measurement is????
I've never been asked such a question, never had someone say "Oh, I have a shelf I want to put that bear on but the bear can only be 6" high.... how tall is that bear seated?" Will someone really only buy a bear if it's the right height when seated? Don't you buy the bear because you fall in love with it, regardless of a few inches??
(***Scratching head, trying to understand!***)
I often wondered what Bobbie sort of said.... if some artists aren't trying to be deceiving?
Apple Dumpling DesignsIn answer to your question Daphne....YES, I did have someone ask me that question once...and YES she bought the bear anyway. To be honest, I don't remember exactly why she asked... ... it was some time ago.
AlmostBearsjust sounding another idea out....why is it that standing height measurements became the standard? Unless a bear is made/able to stand i cant see how it's relevent...i have seen bears(collectable bears) with stands like you get with porceline dolls -did this used to be more common, is that why it became standard?sitting height is eaisier for me to picture in my head as im looking at artists bears on websites etc as i cant pick them up and look at them, or see what size they are in relation to their surroundings(photos can be misleading regards size)when i look at the size, then look at the picture of the bear sitting(which ive noticed a lot are)i can then get a fairly good idea of the size it would be if i was holding it here at my house - standing height just doesnt do the same thing for me.I suppose its all about what your used to - as i havnt figured out how to make my bears stand yet, all my bears are seated so thats the shape and size im used to seeing and can relate to. I hate to think of people being delibratly decitful re sizes but it may be a case of following what others are doing(seeing people adding sitting height to their bears)or just not knowing that some people may prefer standing height.I dont enjoy thinking that people who measure sitting may be branded as decetful as it could damage reputations that dont deserve it. As recently mentioned , there are collectors reading this site too.
oh well that concludes my (probably stupid and off base) rambling for today..i have no hard feelings or nastiness to any, ijust wanted to try and tell you how i look at this topic,
Natasha
Posts: 1,836If I'm giving out both measurements it's for informational purposes. Buying on description alone makes me think I should be supplying as many black and white details as I can. For me that's rising above any kind of deceptive selling practices. (The whole, if they don't ask don't tell them selling practices stink. Who hasn't bought something and said "well I guess I should have asked....but yah think they would have mentioned that")
For me personally it just seems to make sense that if a bear isn't going to stand freely on it's own, if it's a "seated" bear, that you would give out the "seated" measurement along with the "head to toe". Seems logical to me.
:hug:
~Chrissi
Back Road BearsNatasha,
It may have had something to do with artists charging more or less by the inch until recent years. Now there are lots of 'finishing' techniques like airbrushing, eyelids, trapunto feet, extensive needle sculpting, needlefelted faces..... techniques that take a lot more time that must also be added to the price. Techniques that weren't used, or not by many, back in the day.
Also, the internet hasn't always been the place to sell. It used to be teddy bear shows where you saw everything in person and could judge for yourself if the bear was the right height. Artists didn't have to offer up every last detail they could think of in writing. Just the basic facts were all that was necessary when selling 'in the fur'. The internet seems to bring about different requirements, or we think it does.
Jellybelly BearsVery interesting read...I never thought of the whole micro mini height qualification thing and the deceptive aspect..opens up a whole new side to things. Even still I'll continue to give both measurements when I sell my bears...there is so much variation from a bear with short stubby legs to long legs...if I gave the height of my bears as standing only that would be deceiving my customers. As an example, see the photos of both my fairy bear on the showcase and also my swap bear from Tammy (sorry for using you Tammy), they are both roughly the same height standing, yet I could fit three or four of my fairies heads in Tammy's cute fluffy bears head. I suppose I just think that the more information given the better when selling online and wouldn't we as artists want to give the information that would describe the bear best...
I just had a thought...maybe we should do head circumferance like they do babies lol
I don't want to bang on about minis again....but, I like knowing the standing height just out of curiosity's sake 
For example, just this evening I was flicking through some old issues of the Teddy bear and friend's annual mini issue. I haven't read these issues for a few years, and not since I began making minis again. I found it so fascinating, I'd look at a bear and marvel at the tiny knitted something assuming the bear was about 2.5" and then I'd read the description and find that the bear was 4" which is a whole different kettle of fish - even knitting challenged me can knit something for a 4" bear!! I like to marvel at the skill of people who make amazing dressed bears that are super tiny - there's one amazing bear in my mag that is 2.5 inches and is wearing a traditional smocked dress - that dress has got to be all of 2" big and that anyone can smock something that small blows my mind.
And to be honest, I think lots of people that collect minis DO use size as part of the basis of their collecting, yes appeal is certainly the primary factor, but just look at the prices that some of those mini micro crochet bears get...there's a wonder in the tiniest things that capture peoples' imagination.
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)Thank you!! Every one of you are 'spot on' and brought out most of the other aspects of the seated/standing issue that had yet to become an issue, and which I only touched upon in saying that there is sometimes an intentional (though sometimes subliminal [intentional] or subconscious [on purpose]). Yesterday was our annual tax-day-with-the-accountant- and I was being brief in stolen moments to escape the monetary thoughts processes going on.... I had yet to realize that I had much much larger computer issues to deal with!***
when i look at the size, then look at the picture of the bear sitting(which ive noticed a lot are)
- as i havnt figured out how to make my bears stand yet,
Yes, Natasha, and that will come with time. We all put in those months/years! As later stated, until bears were online beginning about 5 - 7 years ago, all bears were viewed in person at shows or in magazines. Beginners didn't usually show their first efforts as most do now; those bears reside in the privacy of our secret cubbyholes—aka, family & friends collections!—so when miniatures were displayed, for the most part they were standing up. Making flat feet was de rigour. I came in in 1990, a decade after the first artist bears became available. Weighting was new in my early days; now it's all of the details that Dahpne mentions.
Techniques that weren't used, or not by many, back in the day.
the internet hasn't always been the place to sell. It used to be teddy bear shows where you saw everything in person and could judge for yourself if the bear was the right height. Artists didn't have to offer up every last detail they could think of in writing. Just the basic facts were all that was necessary when selling 'in the fur'. The internet seems to bring about different requirements, or we think it does.
but it may be a case of following what others are doing(seeing people adding sitting height to their bears)or just not knowing that some people may prefer standing height.
Exactly - if you're new on the scene, you have only the current styles (of descriptions) to follow. I refer more to those that are experienced and should know better!!
the internet hasn't always been the place to sell. It used to be teddy bear shows where you saw everything in person and could judge for yourself if the bear was the right height. Artists didn't have to offer up every last detail they could think of in writing. Just the basic facts were all that was necessary when selling 'in the fur'. The internet seems to bring about different requirements, or we think it does.
I dont enjoy thinking that people who measure sitting may be branded as decetful as it could damage reputations that dont deserve it.
The 'old-timers' (!!!) like me do cut slack for The Younger Generation! We do realize that you use the tools-of-this-trade as they're currently being presented; your questioning of us and your wilingness to learn demonstrates that everything about you is on the up & up!!!
None of us are pointing fingers, just pointing out the differences in the perceived accepted current practices, as the changes occur from what we know from the past. If "times are a'changing", so be it. We'll change too. We oldsters just are doing The Grannie Bit, "In my day...."!!!!.
I dont enjoy thinking that people who measure sitting may be branded as decetful as it could damage reputations that dont deserve it. As recently mentioned , there are collectors reading this site too.
I didn't add to the Collector aspect of the topic yesterday either, but TT was originally - to the best of my knowledge - a place for artists to come together and discuss all aspects of bearmaking. There will be occasional beefs that need input and airing out, to be able to come to a common ground. Like our Mom's & Grandmom's morning coffee klatches, where they discussed things with friends after getting hubbies & kids off to work & school, this is our coffee klatch arena.
Of course our collectors are welcome: most bearmakers are also collectors! But all must realize that sometimes dicey subjects and situations arise and everyone gets to chime into this forum; we are respective of being individuals and most if not all are polite in replying.
oh well that concludes my (probably stupid and off base) rambling for today..i have no hard feelings or nastiness to any, ijust wanted to try and tell you how i look at this topic,
You weren't off-base, rambling or perceived as hard-feelinged. (Is that a word??) Fresh eyes looking at things is how we all learn from each other. We wouldn't grow unless we open ourselves to new ideas. If nothing else, it makes us all aware that both measurements should be given - Chrissi's comments on giving as much info as possible. Unfortunately, those that do this to be deliberately deceptive or hiding a true, full height, are probably not members or visitors here!!!
if a bear isn't going to stand freely on it's own, if it's a "seated" bear, that you would give out the "seated" measurement along with the "head to toe". Seems logical to me.
Absolutely.
artists charging more or less by the inch until recent years.
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL - miniaturists have NEVER used the old formula that standard-sized bears were priced by! We'd've been out of business in mere months! A $15 - $25 bear? Not even in our salad days: remember, those were the bears that went to our closed cupboards or family asked for! We didn't have the internet to get our toe in the door and get back even this small a return on our inventory investment. We plunked our money down for show tables and mag ads when we felt we finally could reliably and consistently produce a quality product.
the whole micro mini height qualification thing and the deceptive aspect..opens up a whole new side to things.
Yes, those numbers are probably still & continually evolving. Micros were under 1.75" - down to an unbelievable 3/10th of an inch. Minis were up to 4" (some say to 6") and Small started after that. Numbers are just numbers, the next quote is most apropos: when everything comes together in perfect scale - the Wonder is there!
there's a wonder in the tiniest things that capture peoples' imagination.
That's exactly what interested me in bear design/creation. I'm fascinated by the miniature and the greatly enlarged side of everything.
***As I was taking advantage of eBay's 20¢ listing fees on Wed, our power went off several times. I had posted my bear auctions and was working my way towards my yarn stashes. In a huge 3 week early Spring Cleaning (delayed about 20 years in some corners!!! SOooo lazy!) I'm posting my yarns that I can no longer knit with. Aging finger joints just won't allow my favorite thread format any more.... I lost the templates I'd written and gave up. I went to bed with a good book and a strong flashlight.
Arriving home after the tax appt yesterday, I noted that my computer's Desktop looked quite different. In further discovery, I found that my 500 GB - that's GIGabyte!!! - external backup drive had not been backing everything up nightly since 14 Dec 06. What it was doing in here at 2 AM every night since is in question. All I know is that I've (again) lost everything I've worked on for exactly 3 months: patterns, columns I've written and was researching, class information, my old book which Marion has so graciously re-typed (hope you still have it!), research for my new book, customer orders & contact info (thank goodness for those who used Paypal, which saves everything from Day One), Address book additions, all emails, teaching assignments this summer (Taiwan!!). What a heartbreak.
I thought spending multo bucks a year ago was going to keep this from ever happening, or at the most losing only 1 day's work.
So - to forget my current troubles I've signed on early to TT and am rambling myself.
Thx for any commiseration you're sending my way!!!
