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Posts: 8,574Ok, maybe I'm ready to try this face sculpting business
Do you folks know of any good books to help me get started! My guys look like toys next to Sheeli's and Judi's and.....
So I need to know How-Did-She-Do-It?
Thanks
Dilu
LuxembearsHi Dilu:D
I learned how to needle sculpt just by trial and error. I also studied faces of real bears... A LOT! I noticed how the eyes were sunken into the head and how the chin looked..etc...
Everyone does it a bit different..soooo as long as you get the desired result there is no wrong or right way to do it. I am a firm beliver in diving in head first...nothing ventured, nothing gained. ALSO...Nancy Tillberg teaches an on-line class called Extreme sculpting. I have not taken that class but I know that people who have are very pleased with what they learned. There may be books out there to.....hhhmmmmmm
Fool's Gold BearsYes, please! Give us some pointers. I am especially curious about how to needle-sculpt eye sockets. Were you talking about using globular doll eyes, or rounded disk eyes, like wired eyes, only no wires? Also, I didn't quite follow that bit about crossing nylon filament over an eye and using two layers of leather. I couldn't picture just what was happening there. I could tell how I do the inset eyes I do, under slitted fabric, but you'll need to know that it's not a perfected art. It is extremely difficult to position them perfectly focused, which as mentioned earlier, is important.
LuxembearsHi Laure,
I don't use any wire on my doll and taxidermist bear eyes. Maybe that works for other people but I can't see how you could control the direction of the gaze that way.
I presculpt the eye sockets, thoroughly, and use a really good glue. Magnatac works wonderfully. You're absolutely right about it not being a perfected art. It is very tricky and takes quite a bit of fiddling around with to get the gaze just right. That will "make or break" a bears overall look. BOY, can it take some patience!
After my eyes are set exactly where I want them, I bulid up the outer eye area with corded lids and/or needle felting. I am always playing around with different way to achieve the looks I want in a particular bear.....and it often changes from bear to bear...that keeps things interesting...as I get bored very easily.
WOW, this message board is really growing. Nice to have you here Laure.
Hugs, Judi
Baird'sBearsHi Laure,
That post about gluing fishing line and leather to the backs of taxidermy eyes was mine. :|
Understand that I'm a rank beginner, but it worked!!
I'd presunk the eyesockets with fishing line but, since I was working on mink, and the head was already stuffed hard, I was afraid to pull too hard. That was before I read Shelli's post on the topic!
I didn't know how to secure a wireless, concave-backed eye, so I decided to fill in the back and add a wire substitute, in this case fishing line. I glued a scrap of linen to the concave back of the eye, glued two loops of fishing line onto that, strung the fishing line through two scraps of leather, and glued down the leather pieces one at a time. This allowed me to attach the eyes in the usual way, and pull them in a little more tightly.
There's almost certainly a better way . . .
Eileen
Baird'sBearsJudi,
Are the eyes you're using concave at the back?
Eileen
LuxembearsThe eyes I use are concave on the bear in my avatar, also my Fairy Bear Tinker on ebay and int his forum on the for sale page, and on Kenai on Intercals mohair bear photo gallery.
Opal, who is also on ebay and in the Bear's for Sale page here in the forum, has full bulb eyes.:D
Fool's Gold BearsThanks, Judi, Eileen!
Wow! Isn't this fun? I love having peers to bounce ideas around with. Now I understand what you were saying, Eileen. I have to say, that was certainly a creative solution to your problem!
I have gotten gorgeous eyes from Van Dykes that had the wimpiest wires on the backs. they must not be meant to take any pressure at all. Those eyes could have the wires cut off completely and be used the way you suggested, Judi.
When you presculpt the sockets, what part of the head do you enter from, behind the ears, at the nape of the neck, or do you think it matters? Do you use wide stitches to indent the fabric for the sockets, or several small stitches, or does that matter either? Perhaps I should just start experimenting and find out what works best for me.
Needlefelting the lids sounds like an interesting possibility. I tried some corded lids on a bear recently, after I talked with Shelli at Nevada City. I'm not sure if I did it the way you do, but here's what I did, and it seemed to work OK: I folded a rectangle of ultrasuede in half with a length of pearl cotton glued into the fold, and the two halves of the rectangle glued together. Then I threaded the ends of the PC onto a needle and inserted near the edge of the eye and pulled the "corded" ultrsde up against the eye with the flaps of the cord tucked under the eye, and buried the thread several times in the head. Do you think that was secure enough, or should I have found a way to tie the PC threads together, maybe even used stronger thread?
Hugs,
Baird'sBearsWow. Very neat trick, Laure! :D
I want to hear what Judi says about sculpting the eye sockets. My books all suggested inserting the needle behind an ear, bringing it out the eyesocket, reinserting it in the eyesocket and bringing it out again bhind the ear.
I tried this and got an eye position that didn't look right. So I tried sewing the sockets side to side through the muzzle. Still not right.
Then I read Judi's post on focusing the pupils, which explained why my cub still looked a bit demented.
Since the eyes were already strung and glued in place, I did a bit more squashing and squeezing and needle sculpting through the stuffing at the back of the neck.
Long story short, he's now looking me in the eye, no longer at my right ear and the ceiling!
I suspect there's a better (not necessarily easier) way!! 
Eileen
Hi all. This topic truly fascinates me. I've often read to insert/exit eye sculpting stitchery behidn the ear. The problem for me is that I sew my ears on LAST, and always choose where they will go based on the facial expression I end up with. So THAT'S no help at all...!
I tried, early on, picking a center point at the lower back of the stuffed head, right at the edge of my disk. I'd insert and exit for both eyes there. Problem with THAT method was that my bears always looked just a little bit 'wall-eyed,' which was... well, creepy.
Finally, I've settled on the following.
Follow your L or R gusset seam down to where it meets your hardboard disk at the bottom back of the head. Use that point for entrance/exit of your eye sculpting stitches.
This does produce two little dimples in the lower back head, but they're generally quite well hidden by your mohair and/or the placement of your head (it's right at the spot where the head butts up against the body.) Don't cross over! By that I mean, use the L gusset line for the L eye... the R gusset line for the R eye.
This is an easy way to get both eyes well secured through the head and looking pretty darn straight on. You don't need to know where the ears go to do it, and you can be 95% positive your stitches will be well hidden. I say 95% because I haven't tried this on very sparse, very shortpile bears, because I tend not to make that kind!
Hope this helps...
Oh, and Laure... your eye method sounds great. I just simply use a strip of leather cording. Put superglue gel on one end, insert into awl hole in head. Put superglue gel on other end, insert into awl hole in head. Put superglue gel across eye, adhere "loose" cord there. Voila! You have an upper or lower lid! Very simple and, as far as I can tell, very secure! I also use black elastic cording for lids, which can be stitched right through the head in one long piece, but it's very hard on the hands and awl holes are still required to pass that thick "thread" through, so I do this less often. It does seem particularly secure, though.
TTFN,
Fool's Gold BearsOh, so that's what you meant by leather cording, Shelli. I didn't think it could be that simple.
For needle-sculpting, if I'm returning the thread back to my starting point, I exit at the exact entrance (awl hole helps), and tie ends in a knot, reinsert both ends & pull til knot pops inside. I have a big fixation on that satisfying little "pop" sound any time I'm burying threads. Every time I hear it, I feel like I've done something right. If you end up with a dent, it helps to take a sturdy needle and reposition the stuffing with it from outside of the bear.
Posts: 8,574WOW my head is spinning...great ideas, thank you one and all; do yu have a particular palce you go for leather cording, or do you make your own? Tell me we can buy it please.
Dilu
Yes, you can buy it. Very simple! Often I find mine in tiny rolls, in cello-packs, in the jewelry section at fabric stores or craft stores (JoAnne's, Hancock, Michael's.) It's almost always available in black; sometimes, ONLY in black. You can use real or fake leather cording, square or round; I use real, just in case anyone is interested to know, and I use round. And I use both the 1mm and 2mm sizes.
The somewhat more interesting, NOT black cording needs a bit more detective work to find. Occasionally JoAnne's or Hancock's will have something in a beige or brown color. I grab it at Britex in San Francisco when I'm down that way; they do not have web ordering last time I looked.
You probably need about a total of 3 inches of cording, per eye, per bear (so -- six inches of cording per bear in a 15"-ish size.) That's waaayyyyyyyyyyyy longer than the actual finished lid will be in length, but you need some extra for "play" and insertion into the head. That is, if you use a method similar to mine. There are many ways to slice this loaf of bread, so to speak.
You can probalby see that, in using such a very small amount, a yard or so of cording can last a long time. Having said that, I buy it by the mile, just about. I know I'll use it; it never "wears out;" and it's easy to store.
Hope this helps!
Posts: 8,574Cool Shelli- I will do a web search. Sometimes it is difficult not being around a real store.
Dilu
Posts: 8,574I 'Goggeled' leather cording and found 4-5 web sites that carry it in many differant colors, including the black and various shades of brown-not expensive either
Dilu
Yay! I've never gotten to the point that I've run out so I've not sought this particular bearmaking "essential" on the web. I'm glad to know it's available and easy to find. I might just have to check into that myself...!
Winneybears and FriendsJudi and Shelli....
I read this whole post several times and got a lot out of it. I did a search for Judi's focusing the eyes " and just could not find it. Judi pre scults the eye sockets before installing the eyes too.
Shelli , I know what you mean by " wall eyed bears " I just experienced that first hand.
I acomplished that by NOT presculpting the eye sockets and not stuffing the head enough then...I installed the eyes cords where I need to bear down when I make the holes and I went in too far thus displacing eye stuffing ... and wondered why his eyes look towards the side ??? agh !
The eyes also looked like the went in too far on the outside corner, " wall eyed " ...that is when I squished and squashed trying to get them level....and pulled on the eye threads to take up the slack ( I only tie the eyes in temporarly with waxed thread) this is when an eye popped off..." boing "....Oh no, that was a hand painted eye so I had to stop and paint an eye ( actually I did more just in case. ) . Does this sound like a" battle of the bear" ...poor bear...painfull birth.
You say you start and end your eye socket sculpting at the end in back..of the right and left center head seam just out side the neck disc...
That is where I take my eye threads but I go one more step on the eye threads...I reinsert the thread and then go under the neck disc ...that would be nearly impossible to do with eye socket threads.I put the ears on last too..so I dont like a dent in the head above.
But..I was thinking of eye socket sculpting with out the neck closed..
I have read that you stuff really hard ...maybe that could STILL be done after eye socket sculpting ?
OK...I am having a difficult time trying to figure out how in the heck can I pre sculpt the eye sockets to sink them in...make a hole to tie eyes in and NOT cut any previous threads in the process and I am supposing I would needle sculpt the face last ?
You should see my long needles...they are all bent so they will not go where I want them to...must buy new ones... Winney
Great topic ladies and filled with very useful information. 101 bears by Nancy Tillberg has I believe a section on eye sculpting although the instuctions given here are very good. Thanks Shelli and Judi
Hugs
Gail
Just Us BearsI have the leather cording on my Bear Cupboard website in both black and brown, both flat and round....
It's very light so should only cost the price of a large letter..ie $1.80.
On the other hand, it's probably still cheaper for you all to get it in your own country. Most haby stores should have at least 1 colour and size...you can also search for leather thonging, same thing, and it's also great for hanging keys and bells around your bears necks.
Laure,
would it be too cheeky to ask about your eye method (the internal one). I'm trying to read between the lines where you said "I could tell how I do the inset eyes I do, under slitted fabric, but you'll need to know that it's not a perfected art. It is extremely difficult to position them perfectly focused, which as mentioned earlier, is important. to know whether you are happy to share or not. If you aren't I completely understand, but I remember reading about it in your Bears and Buds article and thinking I'd love to understand more about how you do that bit.:D
Just Us BearsJudi,
I've often wondered how you make your taxidermied eyes stay in. I'd love to use some of the ones with the natural 'whites' showing but was unsure how to attach. You're a treasure!:cool:
Baird'sBearsBy the way,
Where's Laure? :/
Eileen
Posts: 8,574I had an e-mail from her a few weeks ago- She and her wonderfully supportive husband were getting for quite the round of shows and she was madly wildly making, creating, bearsbearsbears everywhere
We may not see her again until the show season is over :/
Baird'sBears
Thanks, Dilu,
I'm glad she's having such success--well deserved! I can't wait to hear about it . . . let her know she's still got fans here, too!
Eileen
