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Delartful Bears Jan 30, 2008

Hi Everyone,

Firstly I would like to appologise for my lack of participation lately.  Some of you probably have no clue as to who I am even LOL

Anyhow, the real reason I'm posting!  I would just like to gather thoughts on eBay's new feedback policy. 

The read up, visit:
http://pages.ebay.com/services/forum/new.html

I appologise if this topic has already been explored - I'm unaware of any thread and have looked.

So, thoughts?
I hate the idea that sellers can no longer leave negative feedback!!!

Thanks,
Danni

edie Jan 30, 2008

Doesn't really seem fair that buyers can leave negative but sellers can't does it? I do see what they are trying to do but I don't really know if this will fix the problem or not. Basically they may as well not have sellers leaving any feedback because it will be impossible for buyers to have anything other than 100% feedback (unless they also sell under the same name) so feedback will only be for buyers to check a sellers reputation not for a seller to check on a buyer's reputation. The whole thing has been flawed from the start as so many people will not leave neutral or negative feedback in case they get unwarranted negative back. Now at least a buyer can leave honest feedback without fear of retaliation but I hope it doesn't end up going the other way with buyers leaving unwarrented negatives -  i.e. if something takes too long to get there (which may be totally out of the seller's control)

Densteds Jan 30, 2008

Two words Danni...it stinks!!!!

and apparently most sellers agree, have a look at this thread on ebay.com
not happy!!
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa? … 1011721057

ps Good to hear from you again...
hugs, Denise.

toadbriar Jan 30, 2008

I just logged on to post about this. It's crazy!

I was going to start listing again, too. Now I wonder if I want to stick with ebay. Where are bear artists these days? I went to look at Bid4Bears and it was cobwebs    Etsy?

jenny Jan 30, 2008

WELL ..I just read it all and to be honest...and it's not often I think eBay does something good but I do think this is no bad thing...sorry to be the one person who agrees with eBay     !!.

If a seller is bad they deserve bad feedback and should not be allowed to leave tit for tat negative feedbackto a buyer with a genuine complaint. My one negative was from a disreputable, sneaky, nasty seller who sent me an item which was absolutely not what I believed I was buying. I complained politely offering to return it for a refund and she left me negative feedback destroying my 100% record in one hit. She should not have been allowed to do that..and in future she won't be able to..and she will think twice before she sends out shoddy goods knowing she has the weapon of negative feedback to hit back with should anyone complain. Just before Christmas I bought two pairs of expensive slippers from a seller who advertised having the colour I wanted and when they arrived he had sent me the colour I could get in shops in the UK..to be honest only fear of more retaliatory negative feedback stopped me leaving him some...so on balance I think it 's a good move.

I don't think good sellers have anything to fear from this...if buyers don't pay up they can't leave you negative feedback..or it will be removed by ebay so I am assuming that means you would only get negative feedback from genuine complainants, and if you offer great products and good service there is no reason why that will happen. I am not scared of this because I think there has to be a fairer way than this fear of retaliation that stifles honest feedback.

I'm pleased my feedback will  now be restored to 100% because the one negative I have was from  a misuse of the system....bring it on!!

FenBeary Folk Jan 30, 2008

Sorry everyone I have to agree with Jenny, my feedback is 100%, it is something that worries me everytime I buy or sell, Is this going to be the one time I encounter a bad seller or buyer and they leave me bad feedback.
There have been times when I have wanted to leave negative but haven't for fear of reprisal so I leave positive but choose my wording carefully, the star rating system (ie postage costs, time taken, accuracy etc)I do like and find very useful
From a seller point though could they not devise a similar system to allow sellers to rate the buyer (anonomously)on a scale of say 1 to 10, then at least other sellers would know that that buyer was not the best etc
Just my little thoughts

Shelli Retired Help Advisor, Banner SponsorJan 30, 2008

I dunno, guys.  I read thru the thread on an eBay forum that Denise mentioned (thanks for that) and there are ample examples of how sellers might be badly screwed by unscrupulous buyers who have no accountability if they are ensured either positive feedback, or no feedback.  The asymmetry of this policy feels uncomfortable to me, personally.

Also... in reading that thread, I realized I haven't been paying attention to eBay announcements like I should.  I've been slow to make bears over the last year but I found out that a few other changes are taking place, too.  First, listing fees are going down... but final value fees will go up, in some cases as high as nearly 9%.  Yowch!  Read the fine print for more details.

Also, in some cases, eBay will be able to hold PayPal payments sellers receive away from buyers -- in some cases, for up to 21 days I think it read! -- until the item can be confirmed delivered, the buyer leaves positive feedback, etc.  There are details to this which you should read for yourselves.  I thought at first this hold stuff wouldn't apply to me because I met the criteria of having great feedback and over 100 positives in total.  But starting in 2008, another eBay change will be that only the last 12 months of your feedback counts.  So in fact I'll have far fewer than that.

Anyway, this all bears a closer look, and it sounds kinda foreboding to me.  I don't think either side of the auction equation should be allowed to abuse the system, and I see a lot of potential for sellers to get screwed on this, with no accountability on the part of buyers to "play fair." 

Empathy all around for Jenny and Sue because yes, there are unscrupulous sellers out there, too, who suck eggs.  But this policy change just strikes me as ill thought out even given that.  And my gut instinct is that it will have a bad outcome for sellers.

Might be time to start selling exclusively from my site and on Etsy...

jenny Jan 30, 2008

It is six of one and half a dozen of the other. My main reason for feeling it's a good move is that I have been on the receiving end of unscrupulous sellers and do not want to further damage my reputation on eBay by getting more negative feedback from disgruntled and retaliatory sellers who leave negative feedback just because they feel like it if you are cheeky enough to complain when they try to cheat.

I can see that this new system is open to abuse by buyers...but if they don't pay for the items then they can't leave feedback either so that is why I think there is a degree of protection. I also think that perhaps eBay should think of a way of weeding out serial cheats in the buying community because it's not good for anyone. Bren your story is awful...there will always be people like that..they are crooks.

eBay will never be perfect..and other means of selling just don't get the same exposure no matter what...there is no other market place that is accessible to everyone on-line that is so well used as eBay. It will always be a favoured place as it's relatively trouble free and, ok , it can lbe expensive but to be honest it's a fair price paid for exposure for a week/ten days;  many times I have 100 plus watchers on my auctions for bears...I know many will just be 'interested'..I often watch auctions to be nosy...but on my last two auctions I have gained two new collectors. I think the 8.75% final value fee is for eBay stores...ie businesses run entirely through ebay, for the likes of us I think it will work out about the same ..maybe slightly less if you don't have a featured listing.

I have placed advertising in magazines and got nothing back in terms of sales (not that I know about anyway) it's cost me £80 + and I don't know who looks, who reads it, who cares. That won't ever stop me advertising in the magazines  as they are great but I do think that eBay is advertising that you can keep tabs on and is therefore worth it.

There are fors and againsts in this and  I know there are many who will disagree with me but on balance eBay has served me well over the last 3 years or so and I shall carry on listing there while it's worth it.

ArtHeart Jan 30, 2008

Bid 4 Bears doesn't have cobwebs... It just doesn't have any artists using it!
I've done my share of promotion, events, prizes etc.  If the artists don't use it, I'm just going to close it.

hugs,
nancy tillberg

All Bear Jan 30, 2008

I think it's an awful idea.  I've been on the receiving end of it ... a buyer messed me around mercilessly and then left negative feedback on my account ... it was completely unfair and I had a blemish free record until then.  Without being able to truthfully leave my own negative feedback as a seller to warn other sellers, this buyer would be able to continue stitching up sellers to her heart's content.

It makes a mockery of the feedback system.

I've been selling almost exclusively direct to customers via my website, shows and by mail order, over the past year and must admit, I'm far more comfortable with that method of selling generally.  Ebay auctions can be fun and can introduce you to new collectors, but I sometimes wonder whether it's worth it in the long run.

Tracy Jan 30, 2008

Hmm.....I've read some of eBay's new policy this morning and have mixed feelings about it.  The inability of sellers to leave negative feedback does bother me........not that I leave it anyway with the current system.  With that fear of reprisal, the worst I do is leave a neutral or else no feedback at all.   Thankfully, there really hasn't been much incidence where I've felt the need to do so.  The hubs has had more trouble with this sort of thing as he has an eBay store where he sells movies and books..........lots more sales for lower priced items equals more chance of dealing with a dishonest buyer.  Actually, the worst trouble he has is from people brand new to eBay that will leave a negative for something very minor (like postal service being slow), people who possibly don't understand the cost of that negative to the seller. 

There are many changes that sound good up front......like buyers being held more accountable for not paying and other policy violations.  Also, your feedback percentage is only affected by the last 12 months........that enables sellers who might have an old negative to get that 100% back.  It looks like we still keep our total number of positive feedback though, which is good also. 

Really, it seems to me that both systems are flawed......I don't know that there could be a perfect arrangement.  Unfortunately, much of it is going to be trial and error to see what works and what doesn't..........and those of us using eBay are just going to have make the best of it and hope things work okay for us, also protect ourselves the best we can.  Not much else we can do really but complain.....and we've all noticed how well eBay responds to that!   To me, the advertising I'm getting from eBay is worth dealing with them, so like Jenny, I will continue as I have been. 

I won't get into the rate changes too much as I haven't read much on it yet.  Sounds great up front, but I see that eBay will still get their $$ in the end.  No surprise there.......eBay always gets it's money somehow.  And I feel they take way too much anyway, especially when you consider that eBay owns Paypal as well.  The fees go up every year, so maybe we should feel blessed that some of the insertion fees have gone down?.........I haven't looked yet to see what the final value fees are going to be.  All in all, I am certain that eBay will somehow get more money out of us through all these changes. 

I'm heading back to eBay to find more of that fine print.........seems they've got it so you have to really look, yes? Anyway, whatever the changes eBay implements, if we want to use their auction service, then we have to deal with it.

Marlys Jan 30, 2008

Nancy, please don't shut down B4B! I love using the site and very much appreciate your efforts. I don't use eBay because it seems I hear more bad than good about it so I am depending on B4B. Please, please keep it open.    

Little Bear Guy Jan 30, 2008

I read an article in our local newspaper yesterday about some of these changes,  the biggest one was that the insertion fees were going down but some of the final value fee's were going up by as much as 50%.  Ebay currently is running scared as they are not increasing the number of people who are selling or buying, they aren't loosing money per say as they they still managed to squeak out a 4 billion dollar profit between ebay and their sister company Paypal.  There bottom line showed it was down but that was because they put so much money into their other company "SKYPE".

The current head of Ebay is retiring the end of April and there is a new guy coming in, he wants to make some major changes to ebay to bring it back to the way it was.

I do agree partly that I don't like the new feed back system, that a seller can't leave feedback.  But on the other hand they are going to remove any negative feedback a seller has, plus they are now going to allow it that if a buyer leaves you negative feedback and you disagree with it that they will now review it and remove it.  Something that ebay has not done in the past.

We were going to attempt this yr to do more web based selling, but it won't be on ebay, it's way to costly and starting to be a total rip off.   Nancy has done a wonderful job with Bid4Bears and if more artist started using it then it could grow into something amazing, it just takes time that's all.  If you have a mailing list then use that to advertise that you have a bear on there instead of on ebay.

I know on one forum they were discussing doing an ebay boycott the week of Feb 18-25 , maybe people need to try that.  There is also a push on for google to start up it's own auction site, but I still think going back to bid4bears is the best thing. Shouldn't we be supporting the people in our bear community.  (No I have no connection with Bid4Bears    )

Time to maybe stop using ebay and start using other sites,  ebay will cause their own demise and trust me it is going to happen , just give them time to hang themselves. 

Just my two cents worth

big hugs

Shane

K Pawz GuestJan 30, 2008

hmmmm....I am kind of on the fence with this one...I see where they are coming from...to make a long story short I bought a game as a Christmas gift on 27 November paid right away, it didn't get here until 7 January with no reply to any of my emails, until the last one when I emailed and said it had arrived and was very dissapointed that it took so long without an explanation...the response I recieved was "I'm crying...honestly" to me this is just plain rude, but I didn't leave negative feedback for fear of retalitory feedback, so instead I left no feedback at all and others are now at risk of this dishonest seller....so with this new system I could leave justified feedback without worry...
but on the other hand I do worry it will give buyers the upper hand as said above to leave negative feedback for things out of control of the seller such as shipping costs or time...so I am really on the fence about this one...I guess we will just have to make sure we do everything on the up and up and do our very best to ensure even more customer satisfaction! I find the biggest problem that people note when they leave negative feedback for sellers in general is lack of communication, so I think if we communicate with our buyers through each and every step and do follow ups until the item arrives and we know they are happy we should all be pretty safe...but this only really refers to the majority of the buyers, there will always be the ones that want to cause a rift and even without this policy the negative feedback would still come.
Hugs,
Krista

Amanda Jan 30, 2008

What an evil so and so Bren came across. I've been fairly lucky but hubby has come across the nutters, oddballs and plain dishonest ebayers. He used to have it on the calender to leave negative at the last possible time so they would'nt negative back as the time had ran out. All said and done its good for advertising. But I'm also looking to maybe go into other areas this year off the back of it so to speak. Good points raised.

Judi Jan 30, 2008

I know on one forum they were discussing doing an ebay boycott the week of Feb 18-25 , maybe people need to try that.  There is also a push on for google to start up it's own auction site, but I still think going back to bid4bears is the best thing. Shouldn't we be supporting the people in our bear community.  (No I have no connection with Bid4Bears    )

I agree Shane.  Bid 4 Bears can work if artist will use it.

As far as ebay goes I agree that their feedback system STINKS!  It's unfair and inaccurate.  I STILL have a negative feedback affecting my rating because a seller did not receive my check in time by mail.  No my fault...yet ebay refuses to remove the negative feedback.
I paid for the item I won right away.  What more could I do.?

Just recently I bought a bear that was grossly misrepresented.  I contacted the seller as soon I received it and it was agreed that I could return it for a refund. Everything was pleasant.

Well, the seller refused the package ( It was sent to England) because she did not want to pay the value added tax.  It is not my fault that some countries charge this extra tax on imports.  Now the dang package turned up on my doorstep this week.     So now not only will I not get my refund but I'm out the extra shipping.  I did my part.  I feel violated and contacted ebay.  There is nothing they can( or will) do.    I want so badly to leave a negative feedback but I know this will result in a retaliatory feedback.  I don't want this...ebay simply said...'oh well'.

Ebay has made obscene amounts of money from the sales of those who support it...including so many of us....and they don't give a horses *ss about fairness.( Talk about biting that hand that feeds you) I hope that everyone will boycott this HUGE money-making-don't-give-a-darn-about-those-who-have-made-them-who-they-are ebay.  

kathytaylor Jan 30, 2008

I too have had  bad experiences with unscrupulous sellers. I once bought a flute ( I have bought more that one)  any way it was advertised as gold and silver, not uncommon for flutes I have one now Silver. Anyway when the flute arrived it was Plastic and Spray painted with Gold and silver paint. Needless to say I contacted the seller right away and demanded a refund. They were not nice, said I was stupid didn't I know most flutes are plastic, after a few nasty ( on their part)  emails they sent me a refund but left me very negative feedback.
I don't know if any of you are musicians but if it says it is a Silver flute, ( no where did it say plastic spray painted) I expect I am getting a Silver( metal ) flute!!!!
I have had the same thing happen with a bear that was purchased then never paid for, and ended with negative feedback from a dishonest buyer. How do you know if a buyer is dishonest if they don't have credible feedback??? Same with Sellers if you dispute it even if it is honest negative feedback and you get it removed on ebay reveiw then how will anyone really be accountable. The accountability system is flawed now but at least you have one!!!
At this point you can leave neutral feedback without impacting someones rating and still warn others , shipping costs, timely shipping, not what you thought it was, disappointed etc.
From now on you'll have no way of saying anything really, so now it is pretty much a garage sale ,you pays the price yous takes your chances!!Hmmph!

Daphne Jan 30, 2008

I have mixed feelings as well... many have already voiced my thoughts in various ways so no point repeating. I suffer from an unjustified negative from a seller too. If people could just practice a little kindness, respect and honesty the whole feedback system wouldn't even be necessary! Why do people have to be such miserable nasty jerks?

My only other thoughts are that it's very possible eBay will find their new plan doesn't work and they'll reverse it or change it again. They've come up with crazy ideas in the past only to find they don't work. Also, if they'll be under new ownership or management soon then ANYTHING can happen when the new guy takes over.

Shows.... Websites.... Etsy....Bear Pile.... a magazine ad here and there...... I hope I'm right in saying that we don't NEED eBay to survive as bear artists. Perhaps this will encourage many to seek alternatives... maybe we need to do it the way it was done 10-15 years ago when sales were great and didn't happen online!? Guess that only works if we get collectors off-line.

Boycott eBay February 18-25??? No problem!

toadbriar Jan 30, 2008

Bid 4 Bears doesn't have cobwebs... It just doesn't have any artists using it!
I've done my share of promotion, events, prizes etc.  If the artists don't use it, I'm just going to close it.

hugs,
nancy tillberg

It was SWARMING last time I've looked, it was the big push (was it last April?) and the momentum was great, and it was exciting cos what a neat site and good resource.

As to the ebay thing...
it seems that part of their rationale with the new feedback system is to get sellers to leave feedback for the buyer as soon as an item is paid for. This is a topic people have gone back and forth on, but I think feedback should wait til the end of the transaction entirely, when the item is in the buyer's hands. Plenty of buyers have gone loony after paying!

I don't have any negs, and I have never had to leave a neg. But I felt safe knowing I could look at any buyer's FB and get a sense of who I was dealing with, and leave a warning if I had to (at the last minute yeah lol) The new system, I'd feel like I was swingin in the wind. The increased final value fees are just a further kick in the face.

Of course if I sell elsewhere I gotta consider fixing my prices, which is what I have been REALLY avoiding....!

chrissibrinkley Jan 31, 2008

Shel, I agree with what you've written.  I've already started 2008 with the plans of selling via shows and my site/blog, etsy is something very appealing too.  I've never been a fan of ebay's policies so not using them isn't that big a change or concern for me.  I'm fine doing my own thing and not dealing with the issues (there always seems to be an issue out there).

In reading a lot of the ebay forums it's funny that so many sellers still believe that without "them" ebay is nothing.  Ebay is a buyers arena, the customer is always right and that customer across the board is the buyer.  Sellers will always list, it's the buyers ebay needs to keep happy.  Forming a boycott only makes other nonboycotting sellers list more in order to benefit from the event. (the mighty $ at work!) I'm not sure a boycott would have any impact except for the persons not listing.

Ebay's motto is "shop victoriously", not list or sell victoriously.  Ebay pleasing it buyers is their only corporate concern in the big picture, not a few sellers dropping off.  Ebay's policy makers know that sellers truly believe that they need ebay, sellers appreciate all that ebay has done for them, the worldwide "advertising" is priceless to sellers.  Why would ebay need to do anything to make or keep sellers happy, we're resigned to taking anything they dish out because we really believe we need them.  Where else can a seller maybe get much more than it's item is "worth", "reserved at", "or "appraised at" in any category?  Not many places...so who are sellers really kidding....seller's have made it perfectly clear that they need ebay. Buyers...now buyers have the entire web to find that "special something".  Buyers don't "need" ebay and apparently ebay knows that and is consistently making things better for the buyer.

As far as the feedback thing.  Sellers are limited to positive feedback only and buyers can leave all forms of feedback. huh  Dishonest persons please apply, ebay welcomes you and sellers can't bother you anymore *smile wink*.  I think this industry is very lucky in that we work with and sell to collectors and buyers who value an art and an industry from the heart, so maybe this feedback  system won't affect "us" as much.  But other sellers out there are going to be affected much more.    It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Nancy, B4B closing would be such a loss.  Shame on all of us for not working a little more in order to benefit the industry and each other via B4B.  You've been nurturing, positive and forward thinking for the industry as a whole, it's our fault for not using the opportunity to the fullest. 

:hug:
~Chrissi

edie Jan 31, 2008

Well said Chrissi!!! I never thought about the whole buyer/seller thing regarding ebay but wow does what you've said ever make sense!!!
I have NEVER  had a problem as far as selling any of my bears on ebay so I think you may be right there - the change in feedback won't affect us as much in our artist bear sales. I use ebay for other sales (and buying) though and I have had a few minor problems  there - one item that took forever to get there and another a bit damaged in the shipping - both satisfactorily resolved with much communication. Will I have the same opportunity in future to resolve issues or will buyers be much quicker to post that negative when they know they are safe doing so??? I have also had a few issues with buying on ebay - mostly from people wanting to charge exhorbitant prices to mail to Canada when it actually costs them less on small items than mailing withing their own country (same as Canada mailing to the US!) and a few things misrepresented in  the auction which always causes disappointment and frustration. I have never left a negative (although there were a few times I likely should have) because of retaliation - even had one seller threaten me with retaliation - I should have forwarded that email to ebay if I had been thinking  - ebay might have listened since I was the buyer there! 

I too wish that bid4bears would become big enough to be an alternative for us but Nancy seems to have done everything she can (and then some!) and as soon as all the special activities are done it dies out again. I'm guilty too - I haven't listed anything on bid4bears for months (or ebay for that matter), and I don't seem to have a big enough following to drag much business to the site.

rkr4cds Jan 31, 2008

Totally with everything said, but Daphne, you gave me a big laugh.

maybe we need to do it the way it was done 10-15 years ago when sales were great

My first show was in Jan 1991. Everything was so new that I was a little agog and didn't listen as well to the sellers/exhibitors. Within a year or 2 it was everywhere: Sales are Down! It's the economy! We just have to hang on until it turns around again! It's not like the 'old' days (1980s when there were less than 100 working artists!! and nowhere near the number of shows/mags/sales opportunities as in 2000!!!) Every single year since 1991 it's the same line - it's not like the old days.
I'm with you Daphne; you know my heart is an artist's, but 'today' will never be like any old days - how many TTers were around in the early 90s, or were collectors then and are now bearmakers with their own businesses, selling more than they're buying. I look at it as Supply vs Demand and they're constantly in flux.

ArtHeart Jan 31, 2008

...and I don't seem to have a big enough following to drag much business to the site.

I don't believe there is any one single artist that has the power to drag business to the site.  It is the collective power of many artists that will do this.  If B4B is where the bears are then the collectors will follow.  No one can do it alone... on any site.

hugs,
nt

FenBeary Folk Jan 31, 2008

Nancy, you are so right. :hug:
My promise to you, is to read up on how to list etc join, and list regular. I will also add info about B4B on my website.
I am only new and my bears do not have mass appeal (YET!!!) but like you said if more of us listed??? who knows.
Please don't shout at me, I know that lots of you do list, but I am sure there are many like me who don't or have not got round to it yet :redface:  :redface:  :redface:
Many Hugs Nancy

MerBear Feb 1, 2008

I have never listed on eBay todate and am not likely to list there in the future - it intimidates me. But B4B has worked well for me in the past year. It's easy to use and friendly. Try it - you'll like it!

Marion