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Back Road BearsOk, so this is a sort of an odd discussion but I'm at odds with myself over it so I'd love to hear what others think!
If you fell in love with a bear, bought it and later discovered it didn't have a neck joint how would you feel? Would it matter?
If you saw a bear at a show that you loved but it didn't have a neck joint would you still buy it?
I have mini bears whose heads are sewn on, not jointed. Some by award winning artists even. But all the bigger bears seem to have neck joints.
I just designed a bear for a kit for a class I'm going to be teaching whose head side and body side are all one piece but still with a gusset in the head. He came out great and you'd never know his neck wasn't jointed. (I designed him this way as I'd be sewing all the "skins" and it has to be a short class... I was trying to eliminate as many steps as possible so the class could be dedicated to finishing techniques.) The owner of the shop where I'm teaching asked if I'd make some of the bears to sell. That's when I began to struggle with this...... it just always seemed that bears necks should be jointed... that it was a requirement for it to be an "artist bear". But is that really true?
Thoughts??
Hi Daphne
If I loved the bear enough to purchase it it wouldn't bother me that it didn't have a neck joint. This would have been somethinbg that I would have realized before I bought it. It is certainly not a requirement for me personally for the bear to have a neck joint in order for it to be an artist bear. After all you have designed this bear so it is an artist bear. How many times do we move the head of a bear in our collection anyway????
Just my two cents worth!!!!
Hugs
Gail
Posts: 3,540I started my bears with non jointed heads...and I sold many of them. Most people don't mess about with their bear's positions. The bear stays in the static sitting position, head forwards. There is no requirement as an artist bear for the neck to be jointed. I know there seems to be some myths about the whole 'artist bears have to be jointed." But the whole point to it being an artist bear is that we as artists get to chose what we do ~ joints, no joints, some joints.
I think they would sell just as easily for you, and I'm sure you'll make it clear that these are non jointed for the head. 
Dolls N DreamsI would not care if the bear did not have a neck joint!
Bears by EdieI think it depends a lot on the style of bear it is. If I was purchasing a bear made to look like an old antique teddy then it might be important to me that it have all the limbs and head jointed just like an antique teddy (although even there, you do find certain styles of antique bears that don't have jointed heads or even jointed limbs). If it is an "artistic teddy" that is meant to stay in a certain position or pose then I would not expect the head (or even limbs) to be jointed. I think most people buying the bear would realize before they purchased it that the head wasn't jointed so it shouldn't be a problem! Collectors might "play" with repostioning a bear's head when they first get it but once it is put in a display case then, as Gail said, it is usually just positioned and left sitting on display!
I love to set bears' heads at a cute angle, so it wouldn't work for me.
Back Road BearsThanks for the responses ladies.
Am I the only one who actually "plays" with my collection... moving them often, putting them in endearing little poses, head tilted this way or that. I get bored so quickly, I can't stand to look at my bears all sitting in one place for too long!
There are going to all sorts of thoughts and opinions on this but I'm glad to hear that perhaps the bear doesn't HAVE to have a neck joint to still be special.... stlll be an artist bear of sorts.
Anyone else have an opinion on this?
(PS - as for buying it then later realizing its neck didn't move I was referring more to an internet purchase where an artist might not make it clear that it doesn't have a neck joint.... yes, I'd notice before even buying it in person, if it didn't have a neck joint!)
Strange BearsHI Daphne
Some years ago I saw a bear at a show that looked lovely I bypassed it to see the rest of the show and then with minutes left rushed back and bought it. When I got home and I went ot psoe the bear in my collection I realised it didn't have a neck joint. That bear now sits in my third bed room at the back of the shelf.
Yes, totally disappointed in him and felt really ripped off. I KNOW it was my fault for not really looking before I bought and I loved his face but I just can't pose him into the collection the way I want and I just feel "wrong" about him now, he doesn't feel finished. And although it isn't fair I never considered that artist to be a "good" artist after that and never stopped at her table again. (this was in the days before I started to make bears) I may have felt differently if she has pointed out that the bear was not "fully" jointed before I paid, in those days I was hesitant to "over" handle peoples bears and this purchase was my turning point both my husband and I fully checked every bear before paying after this bear!!
So for me yes a neck joint is really important......
bearhugs
Chaska, MinnesotaIf I like a bear, it would not matter to me if it had neck joints or not...Now, Daphne, post a picture of this bear... I would love to see what he looks like.
Back Road BearsHere he is BEFORE I waxed his nose and shaded his face a bit.... after thoughts! He looks more "finished" now but I had to run out the door with him to drop him off and never took another picture. I never even measured him but he's about 13" tall.
I think as long as it is stated that there is no neck joint, there wouldn't be a problem! And there are ways around posing without a neck joint, I as well have had one in the works and plan to put armature up into the head and stuff the neck area a little looser thus still enabling movement of the head, possibly more so than with a neck joint, and poses that would only be possible with a double neck joint. with this I can achieve not only side to side movement but up and down and various tilting positions as well.
Honey is goregeous by the way Daphne!!
hugs,
Krista
Posts: 3,540Sandra, if the little no jointed bear bugs you, why don't you go ahead and put him up for adoption? 
I've had bears in the past that were given to me as gifts, and try as I might, the poor things got shoved to the back of my collection practically never to see anyone. I got a huge guilt complex one day about the poor things and promptly gifted them to nieces, aunties, and my sister and never looked back. Bears were meant to be treasured and if it doesn't do a thing for you, you might try ebaying it or donating it to a younger relative. It would be a good way to kick start their collection.
Daphne your Honey bear looks like a real Honey! 
I'd emphasise that he's not neck jointed, though because with his matching scarf, its hard to tell. You don't want someone accidentally ripping his head off thinking the joint's too tight 
LOL, so I'm not the only one creeped out by wobble joints for the neck 
I picked one poor chap up at a show and his head lolled to the side ~ it looked like he'd just gotten his neck broken 
I know they're great for doing all sorts of cute poses, but yep, they kinda creep me out too. 
Bears by EdieI agree, Honey is a GORGEOUS bear - but that IS the type of bear that I would expect to have a jointed neck so for sure you would have to emphasize that it doesn't so as not to disappoint.
I like your idea of armature going into the neck so that it is moveable in different ways, Krista!
q.D.paToOtieSYep, Daphne, when I look at your darling Honey, I expect a neck joint. With that bear and it's size, I would be disappointed too unless you specified it was only 4-way jointed. I feel the same way though when I see an adorable bear and his legs are not jointed but look like they are. A real bummer.
I would still call your honey an artist bear though...
This is such an interesting thread. 
Daphne, Honey is so adorable! Gorgeous coloring, too. I think you should state that there's no neck joint, but for purposes of a class where you want the students to focus on finishing, I think it works just fine. I like to position my bears, so a neck joint is important to me, but a couple of the antique bears in my collection have a stationary head, and that's fine by me. (I am reminded of my mom's antique dolls, which are bisque and whose heads aren't positionable. Now that I think about it, it bugs me that they are all staring straight ahead! 
) I am not sure what I would think if I came across an artist bear with no neck joint ...I suppose it would depend on the bear!
As for wobble jointed heads, now that you mention it, Lisa and Debbie, the very loose ones that make the head loll about and seem that the bear will quite rightly lose his head at any moment DO freak me out a little. 
I had never thought of it, but I do tend to shy away from the really loose ones. I often do a wobble joint in my bears' necks, but I will tighten it relatively tight so there's not a lot of play. Come to think of it, why do I do that? I'm not too sure! Probably for the positioning possibilities.
Can't wait to hear more!
~Debora
Bears by EdieI don't like the wobble necks either if they are REALLY loose. Mainly I don't like it if they are done so that you can see the cotter pins when the neck lolls - then they are way too loose for my liking. To my mind they fit best with an antique looking bear where loose joints add to the antique look rather than a bear that isn't distressed and looks like a regular bear until you pick him up and his head lolls and you think it wasn't attached properly and is going to fall right off! If he is supposed to look like a sleepy baby then I think the wobble joints can be very effective too - but still not TOO loose!
I guess when I would most go for a stationary neck is when the bear is designed to be posed in a certain specific way and not meant to be moved to a different pose. I've done a few like that but have still jointed the neck and limbs - even though I want them posed one way! - and it does bug me a little to see someone come along and reposition the bear. Then I think that I should have just NOT made him jointed so he woud permanently stay the way I meant him to be!
I'm with you on the wobble joints, Edie, and I really don't like to see the cotter pins!
I can see making a nonjointed bear who is meant to be posed in one way. That would be a challenge in itself! I remember a bear artist who did many unjointed bears in fun poses. (I can just picture you getting annoyed when someone moved your bear into a different pose. 
)
Tami Eveslage Original Teddy BearsI'm with you on the wobble joints, Edie, and I really don't like to see the cotter pins!
Debora, perhaps you'd better not adopt one of my Little Floppies, then. You can't see the cotter pins so much when the bear is sittting--or shoud I say leaning, since they are very Floppy-- but when you pick him up and his limbs flop around in your hands, you can see the linked cotter pins!
Daphne, I too like to play with my bears, so I pefer a jointed neck, but I see no problem in selling a bear with a stationary neck as long as you say so (since he does look like he would be jointed). But he may not be as popular as bears with posable heads. This guy is a real cutie though!
I designed a doll/critter (my Furbaby) for a class I was teaching for dollmakers and I made the neck as I have seen many cloth dollmakers do it, making a neck on the body, inserting the neck into the bottom of the head and sewing it on with a ladder stitch. In the end I adore the Furbaby Fox but I do wish I'd designed him with a jointed head. He has been to a few shows, but not sold and I wonder if he would with a jointed neck. Loads of people comment on how cute and original he is, so maybe it is lack of a neck joint.
Ha-ha, Tami! :redface: I now remember that I do love some wobble-jointed bears--specifically your Little Floppies! I wouldn't mind the cotter pins or the floppiness in that case because I know that's what they're supposed to be like. And their faces...sigh...they win me over, regardless.
Past Time BearsDaphne . . . Honey is sooooo cute - just delightful! No, I wouldn't mind an unjointed head if I knew about it before I bought the bear - whether by discovering it myself or the seller telling me. For me, a bear (or friend)need not have any joints to be considered an "artist" creation. I've made a cat and dog with no joints and my roosters have only a jointed head, but they still sell as artist pieces. I do realize, however, that jointing is important to some collectors as I've had many people pick up my bears at shows and test every joint by twisting them all back and forth. As long as the customer knows the head is unjointed, all is well.
Dolls N DreamsI like the wobble neck look, I have a few artist bears in my collection like that.
I'm working on my first right now using the cotterpins in the head and neck, I want that wobble from side to side and front to back , I think you can pose them in really cute positions like that.
Waggle BearsHoney is an adorable little bear. You'd never know he doesn't have a jointed neck.
Like others, I don't think an unjointed neck would be a problem for me, but I would want to be told about it before I purchased. I probably wouldn't pick up a bear and turn the arms, legs and head to find out if they're jointed.
I think Honey is perfect for your class. After everyone has this class under their belt and can presew at home, you can give the jointed version...if you wanted to.
Nova Scotia,CanadaHoney is adorable!!! I wouldn't mind an unjointed neck as long as I knew when I bought the bear that that was the case.
Interesting topic. I have been working on a bear who's legs are not jointed and he is in a permanent sitting position. I would be sure to state this in my auction but I fear that some people only look at the pictures and never read the information.
Strange BearsThis is so interesting, I mentioned to my husband about this thread and we went and found our "unjointed ted" we bought so many years ago (yeeks we worked it was 17 years ago).
After some discussion we agreed that one of the reasons we were so upset that the artist didn't tell us or point out that the neck was unjointed was because we felt that we .....paid too much for a non-fully jointed bear. Now before you all jump all over me.........I was a non-bear maker at the time!! I felt that a bear that was not-fully jointed should be worth less.
So my point is........will collectors who are non-bear-makers feel the same.
Now we all know that adding a head joint is simple and really not all that time consuming and the the extra joint cost wise is not high......really not that more probably that the extra stuffing and time spent in stuffing. Daphne can probably be clearer on this point as I have never NOT done a neck joint.
But will collectors expect a drop in price for no neck joint and would they expect a substantial drop for a perceived lessening of quality........and I'm not talking maker/collectors but non-making collectors.
I hope I'm making sense with this because I can only go by how we felt all those years ago. These days I wouldn't expect a change in cost ......but I have a feeling that some collectors would....what do others think?
bearhugs
Back Road BearsCost: Yes, I considered lowering the cost on this type of bear if I made them for the shop who asked for them. After all.... I designed the bear this way to make it a. quicker to sew and b. quickler to assemble and it is indeed both. And yes, a dollar or two less because of no jointing hardware. Another reason I considered pricing it less is that it doesn't "feel" (when making it) like a true artist bear without that neck joint.
I might feel differently about how I priced it if it was one of my bears with trapunto feet, lots of shading and scissor sculpting, etc. just w/o a neck joint. But then, I wouldn't go to all the work and not make it a fully posable bear.
A neck with locline or similar in it but no actual joint would certainly be a considered an artist bear in my opinion as it presents even more posing options and is still creative in design.
Now, Honey LOOKS like he'd have a jointed neck. If he were to be sold online then YES..... I would certainly say he didn't have a joint there. Perhaps I will try that some day just to see if he still gets adopted, if questions are asked, etc. Might make ONE to take to a show and see what the response is there too.
Personally - I'd prefer a neck joint myself.
