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Amanda Jan 20, 2008

Hi all. This got me thinking the other day. I like most, started making large bears and did OK. I now just do small ones, just as well as I now have a work cupboard and not a room! Do any of you girls who do both miniatures and larger bears find people don't want to pay as much for your miniatures? I know larger ones cost more to make but time wise they are round about the same, give or take an hour or two.

OR do you find people are in awe of how tiny and the hard work you put in to get them looking good in that size.

Do miniatures even rate as Teddy Bears or more as collectable/ornament.

I'd love also to hear off collectors. How do you feel about miniatures versus larger bears.

This could get interesting!

Laurie Jan 20, 2008

This should be an interesting subject Amanda.I have been making bears 3 years now and started off with large bears but am gradually getting smaller and smaller and it is partly because of the challenge to make smaller bears and I seem to forever hear that people prefer to collect smaller bears because of space.I supply to my local shop and he prefers smaller bears as they are easier to sell so I make 12 inches and under although I like to do a 15 inch bear now and again.The tiny bears do seem more ornamental because of their size and bigger bears are just right for cuddles.I have just finished my first mini bear of 5 inches and will try and post piccies tomorrow but I must say I think I will be hooked on making these little bears.I would say that I spent as much time to sew this little bear as I would one of my 12 inch bears and they could cost the same as a bigger bear because they take as much work.I will look forward to seeing replies to this and how my smaller bears do in terms of sales although I am already hooked on making these little bears and will carry on making them anyway :dance:
Laurie :hug:

Tami E Jan 20, 2008

What a great question!

Most of the bears I make are large by anyone's standards 16-23 inches, but I have made bears as small as one and one half an inch tall. I put a great deal of detail in my bears, and I would agree that  some small bears  might take as long to make as some bigger bears, but I think in general they do not. I use a machine to sew my larger bears, but I hand sew smaller bears, and even so they take a great deal less time than my larger bears, because of the detailed paw and face treatments I give my larger bears. Not to mention that stuffing a larger head, body,and limbs properly takes longer. Scissor sculpting the snout takes longer, too because--well--- there is more area to trim.

But I can think of several minature bear artist even here on TT who are able to add wonderful detail to their tiny bears, and the time they spend is clearly evident in their work. These bears fetch prices similar (or greater for the artists who have created a name for themselves ) to what I receive for my most detailed large mohair or alpaca bears. There is just something intrinsically impressive about the talent it takes to create detail and beauty so small. When I see the mini bears go for prices like that, I always feel like I have no business sense at all. Why do I put all my time into a bear that costs me nearly $100 in materials when I could be making minis at a much greater profit margin? But as artists we have to do what we love, and I love making and holding and having big cuddly bears. And there are plenty of collectors who are like me. There are also plenty of collectors who prefer the tiny, delicate beauty of a well crafted mini, so there is a place for all.

WildThyme Jan 21, 2008

I totally agree with you Tami... you have to make what you love... I obviously started out with just miniatures, but also worked my way up to making larger bears as well... mostly for the challenge of it, and because those beautiful mohair fabrics were just too gorgeous to resist!  I always encourage miniature artists to give a big bear a try & vice versa... there is SO much to be learned in both directions.  For the first year of my mini making, my mini bears looked like mini bears!     It wasn't until after I started making larger bears that my bear making really came into it's own, with prices to reflect that as well.

Since I hand sew my mohair bears, they do take quite a bit longer than my minis, especially since I sew all the seams twice!  :doh:   Cost-wise, the minatures are certainly less expensive to make.  From a profit point of view, I do much better with the little ones.  My husband always asks why I even bother with larger bears since the profit ratio is generally so much lower for me, but I just can't help it... I love the mohair so much!  I totally agree with Tami... unless you approach bear making from a strictly business/profit point of view (which I doubt many of us do!    ) you really do yourself a service when you make what you are drawn to and love!   

Kim Basta

Tami E Jan 21, 2008

Kim, I was waiting to hear from you on this one   because, your tiny ones are just as fabulously detailed your larger ones. (Love them both!!!   ) So, all other factors being the same, smaller ones do take less time. My small bears are usually much simpler than my larger ones, so my comparison isn't as clear cut.

I was thinking  about your original question, about whther minis are "rated" or valued less than bigger bears--I'd say, not really. I think it depends on the collectors' preferences.

Amanda Jan 23, 2008

Thank you all so much for replying. Very interesting. I suppose there is'nt one clear cut answer, but individual thoughts. Its funny but I fell into miniatures late on and as people liked them, I made them, then that seemed to be it, Amanda, the one who makes miniatures. From a financial point of view I used to make more money from large bears, but that was years ago and things have moved on. I think the major thing is, if finances allow it, to make what we enjoy. I keep thinking shall I get my mohair from the loft, but if I can't be bothered  ,then its miniatures for me.

I don't think it helped when a few years ago miniatures started to be mass produced. It took something away from them. You could argue they became more affordable and opened the market up, but....I'll be blunt, whatever the design, somebody on very low wages in China, sitting sewing, well....Saying that, hey ho, thats the economy and I don't flinch when buying cheap clothes. Hmmm...thinking aloud here, could get me in trouble!

The best one was seeing miniature bears in the £1 shop ($2). 

In the end its horses for courses, but it would be nice to hear from people who collect miniatures and bigger bears. How do they see them, differently? Or just wonderful bears.

melissa Jan 23, 2008

For me personally, I have to absolutely disagree that miniatures take less time than bigger bears.  I know we all read about those people that whip up in a mini in two hours, but I have to confess that the perception that my work is so much easier and faster to create than a big bear really irritates me.

I have made bears in all sizes ranging from 1" to 32".  And the first 5 years of my bearmaking was spent hand sewing 12-16" creations which took me about 8-10 hours to create.  Over the years, my creations have shrunk to be between 1" and 4" and the majority of them still take me at least 8-10 hours to create and even more if they're dressed!!  Now, I'm just comparing the time frames for myself.  I know that some big bear artists spend upwards of 20 hours on a creation.

Admittedly, I like my work to be as perfect as I can make it.  My stitches are less than 1mm long so it takes me a long time to sew up a bear and stuffing takes me forever as the potential for lumps and bumps is magnified when the limb you are working on is an inch long.  Restuffing is my least favourite pastime, so I take care to get it smooth the first time - even if that means adding miniscule amounts at a time.

And know I coud save time by taking bigger stitches and leaving out some details such as arm paw pads and a guesset in the head - but then I wouldn't be making bears that are true to myself and churning a mini out every day and making a bigger profit is not what it's about for me. 

I could actually make more money as it were from selling my 4-6' mohair bears.  They take me less time and the cost of the mohair I use is generally less than that of my precious vintage malden mills fabric.  They are also a lot less demanding on my body physically.  Holding tiny half inch head pieces while you sew them becomes incredibly painful after a time. For me, there's a huge difference in creating the two sizes and I know that it's not something other people can so easily understand but that's ok. 

Granted, the materials cost is somewhat cheaper, and Stef from Sassys has provided a much needed source of fabric for us.  A couple of years ago I couldn't afford to make minis as the cost of obtaining vintage long pile was prohibitive and I still have a panic attack when I cut into my very expensive and rare oyster vintage malden mills longpile fabric!   And yes, some mini artists make amazing amounts for their creations and even I shudder when I see some of the prices that some creations fetch but I do that with large bears too    Although I haven't looked at ebay lately, over the last couple of years there has been a big downturn in the prices paid for minis.  The high high prices are still obtained by some, but the solid middleground prices are just not there anymore. 

I stopped selling there because by the time I'd paid all the fees, I was getting less than $10 a bear over and above the cost of my fabric and listing fees.

In my expierience as a collecter, both here and at Australian shows, I would say that there are very few mini artists who get big prices for their work.  At the Aussie shows I've attended, I can only think of three who charged over $150AU for their work - and those bears had amazing intricate handmade metal and leather props.

I adore bears of all shapes and sizes and have to say that I am in awe of artists who can create truly large bears with amazing characterful personalities.  Getting back to your original question Amanda, I'd say that collectors are as varied as bear artists. Some collectors adore tinier bears and some just don't get it.  Some love to collect great big bears (I just wish I had a big house so I could!)

Some big bears are enirely huggable and cuddly - some big bears have details that make them not remotely cuddly and are intended to displayed like a piece of art.  I have a tiny collection of mini bears, and and a few larger bears.  I actually pick up my minis way more often than I do my larger bears.  Your koala is actually an example of a mini that is supremely tactile.  Who wouldn't want to rub his fuzzy little ears!    But that reflects me and my collecting tastes.

I'm sure every artist who's ever been to a show has experienced that feeling when people walk past your table without looking at it - yes it's annoying but it's part of life.  I know that I get really down about my bears  and their quality and envious of people who make fabulous bears that make more money.   And as much as I hate the homogenous trend driven style of ebay selling, every now and then I contemplate adapting my style to fit those trends.  But, I just can't do it.  As has been said time and time again on TT, you have to be true to yourself.

Don't overthink it and create what you want.  It may take a while but the collectors will come back and appreciate you.  I absolutely adore my koala and while I know your questions weren't about syle per se, I love the style of your bears so much.

Actually, on reflection, my bear collection is sums  up It has bears from artists who at various times have been the 'hottest' artist on ebay and bears from virtually unknown artists and the styles are a mix of contemporary and traditional, plain and froufrou and includes ducks bunnies bears koalas and the cutest little bluebird you ever saw.  I just realised that not one conforms to the trend of what's 'in' on ebay at the moment.  Whilst my collection at the moment is limited by the size of my house (and income!)  Although I 'collect' minis I don't buy a mini bear at the show because it's a mini bear but because the bear speaks to me in some way.  That's why some bigger bears have snuck their way into my collection.

Ok sorry for the rant...

Christine Jan 23, 2008

Hi guys,
Really interesting question!  Like some of you, I make bears in many sizes, but I have a special love for minis!   I am in awe of anyone who can make really tiny bears - my smallest are around 3 1/2 inches - and I think that making minis requires a whole different set of skills to making large bears.  I charge around the same for my minis as I do for larger bears because they take me just as long.  I find that they sell best from my website, because I can take good, clear pictures of them, so they don't get 'missed' as they sometimes do at a show when I have a mixed table of large and small bears.  Having said that, I do find that collectors appreciate what goes into creating a good miniature bear and they accept that the costs involved are more than the cost of the fabric and time alone.
Hugs,
Christine

Amanda Jan 23, 2008

Shows passion for what you do Melissa. I'll admit my first post is playing Devil's advocate a little. I do like making large and miniature bears but to be honest, its so much more restful and easier doing the miniatures, so for now, thats where I'm at. Its interesting to get people's opinions and they do vary but I think come back to the same thing, as a collector or maker you are just drawn to what feels best. Miniatures fit in better with my life as space is now a problem and in summer I would like to work outside, very much a maker's lifestyle choice, I suppose.

As to ebay, well thats in a world of its own.

nimbleknot Jan 23, 2008

I don't know if I count since I needlefelt and only make bears smaller than 4 inches. BUT, I do collect and I collect very small things. I am attracted to small items. I think because I have a place to display lots of small items behind glass. I have never been attracted to large toys or collectibles. I even DRAW small. I took my first knitting class a couple weeks ago and bought size ONE needles and I am knitting Perle cotton thread. I think size TOTALLY depends on the personality of the collector. Heck, I even want a smaller house.

I am not interested in making larger bears. I love making small bears and creating lots of tiny detail. When I made my first mohair I drew the pattern to FIT on a 12x12 piece because I wanted a small bear. I would be totally overwhelmed at making a large bear and have no interest in making one. Am I strange? Getting anxiety over a big piece of fabric. Geez.  :doh:

Tami E Jan 24, 2008

This is a good thread! .

I was not saying that making miniatures bears is always faster than making bigger bears and I'm most definitely not saying its easier to make minis. I have to agree with Christine that making miniatures requires a whole different skill set than making larger bears, and I, too, am in awe of all of you who work very small.  I have not made a true mini in years. I think collectors do appreciate the value not in just the time involved but also in the expertise, and talent and vision of the artist. I have never made any bear, big or mini or even needle felted, that took less than 8 hours, I just can't rush, but my big bears take at least twice that.So the answer to the question is that it depends on the artist and what they put into the bears how much time they take. I also think it depends on just how big is a "bigger bear". From my experience, making a 8-12" bear without the trapunto/applique'd paws or open mouth takes 8-10 hours, so that is about the same amount of time it would take me to do a mini, but to me, those are not big bears!

Christine wrote

I charge around the same for my minis as I do for larger bears because they take me just as long.

Really? But what about the difference in your materials cost? I totally feel the need to charge more for a bear that cost me $100 to make than one that cost $15 to make even if they did take the same amount of time. Although, I guess if I brought my mini price UP to were my big bears are priced rather than going the other way around that would be OK 

edie Jan 24, 2008

I make mostly mini bears now but have done all sizes in the past - up to about 40". I agree with you Tami, it does depend on what you consider a "bigger" bear. My biggest bears - 3 foot range-  took a lot longer to make and cost a lot more to make than most of my minis - and took a lot more out of me physically (I had to quit and go to just minis after I got tendonitis in both elbows and could no longer stuff anything bigger than a mini for several years!) Some of my medium size bears - 8"-12" took less time to make than some of my more involved miniatures. It's really a bit like comparing apples and oranges isn't it! That said I do feel that the cost of materials is going to add to the price of a larger bear over a miniature - unless the larger bear isn't THAT large and is a very simple design, and the miniature is very complex. There are just so many things to factor in that it is hard to generalize. I collect both miniatures and larger bears and I agree with Melissa here - it is the bear itself that I just have to have, not the size factor - although these days I try really hard to be drawn only to small bears as I am running out of room! Doesn't always work though! 

Christine Jan 24, 2008

Tami and Edie make good points about the differing costs of fabric.  However, I actually don't take that into account so much in my pricing, unless I have used an exceptionally expensive fur.  I tend to go more on time and effort, complexity of design - and plain old gut feeling!   To me, the actual fabric used is not so important - I will use whatever will (I hope!) achieve the best result in terms of design.  I realise that I may be quite odd in this respect and this really is just my personal opinion on the way I work!
Christine

edie Jan 24, 2008

Andrea, that is such an interesting comment on this topic! I have always kind of felt that the price should reflect the artistry and not just the size of bear and the cost of materials and the time involved. It's getting a little off the topic, but it brings to mind a discussion I started on a different bear chat group a number of years ago and I think rather than twist Amanda's thread into something else I am going to start a thread in General on this very thing. Please come and share your wisdom there as I want to ask some more questions re pricing paintings compared to bears.
Christine, I've got a question for you on the new thread too.

Tami E Jan 24, 2008

Tami and Edie make good points about the differing costs of fabric.  However, I actually don't take that into account so much in my pricing, unless I have used an exceptionally expensive fur.

Christine

I nearly awlays use expensive fabric--I am a sucker for long dense kid mohair and alpaca.

jacky Jan 25, 2008

hi im new to teddy making :pray:  please how do you get that lovely round muzzle . thanks jacky

Amanda Jan 25, 2008

Hi Jacky, welcome. You might want to post this question in tips and techniques, it will not get as much attention here. If there is a particular artist/bear you were thinking off just PM them. We don't bite, promise! :hug:

jacky Jan 25, 2008

thanks for reply .i only found this site on thursday so im not sure how to use it . but i will learn   jacky

Tink Sep 20, 2008

As someone who has made both large and tiny bears, I have to say that in many cases the tiny ones aren't as appreciated as the larger ones. Not always, mind you... In many cases.

That said, I have been working in glass for many years now, and find that I still prefer working tiny over working large. It's an ongoing struggle to explain that it's often more difficult to do something on a very small scale than to make it larger. I've found many parallels between the challenge of working as a bear artist and as a glass artist.

Tink Martin (aka Debbie Kesling)

Amanda Sep 20, 2008

Hiya Deb! Funny when I saw this thread from away back. Looking back it was when I was....hmmm.....at sorts, so to speak. I kind of fell into miniatures and even now don't think of myself as a miniature bearmaker. But, I am, because thats what I make!!! I do think you are right though, but its the loyal collectors that keep me going.

Lovely to see you on here, a true friend of mini bearmakers. Your books are in my local library, fantastic. :dance:

rkr4cds Sep 20, 2008

It's an ongoing struggle to explain that it's often more difficult to do something on a very small scale than to make it larger.

How funny; as soon as I read your sentence I thought of you & Deb Canham and Laurie Sasaki and all of the 80s ppl - that it's always been said by those who have been there since the beginning: you cannot appreciate the skills of proportion until you try to make them indistinguishable—to the eye of a camera—from a 12" or a 36" bear. That is true artistry!

It's nice to hear from you again! And see post #1 from you ~ may there be many more!

(Was it ever solved why they call the German eyes "hand-blown", as hand blowing glass usually implies blowing air into a bubble and create a vase or similar open-shaped vessel, not solid all-glass insides like eye??????
Just wondering from one of our pioneering, old-timers, if you'll forgive me calling you that!

wazzabears Sep 21, 2008

I love making my minis. I find they take about the same time as larger ones. And my minis sell for the same as my large one. Collecter appreciate the tiny detail.
Debbie, Glass Artist!! How exciting. I am studying visual arts at Uni at the moment and majoring in Glass. Love the molten glass and the colours.

Tami E Sep 21, 2008

As someone who has made both large and tiny bears, I have to say that in many cases the tiny ones aren't as appreciated as the larger ones. Not always, mind you... In many cases.

That said, I have been working in glass for many years now, and find that I still prefer working tiny over working large. It's an ongoing struggle to explain that it's often more difficult to do something on a very small scale than to make it larger. I've found many parallels between the challenge of working as a bear artist and as a glass artist.

Tink Martin (aka Debbie Kesling)

Hi, Tink ! I have your book! are you making bears again?

I think when you take scale to the extreme in either direction you are presented with challenges that you might not have making something in a medium sized scale. (When talking of extreme as far as large is concerned I'm not thingking of Teddy Bears, but of the artsit whe does amazingly realistic people in gigantic sizes. ) But as Bobbie pointed out, the bottom line is the craftsmanship and artistic talent and I think that is true at any scale. A beautifully made detailed mini, or a skillfully designed larger bear will be appreciated by collectors more than bears of any size that are not beautifully made and skillfully designed.

Tink Sep 21, 2008

It's an ongoing struggle to explain that it's often more difficult to do something on a very small scale than to make it larger.

(Was it ever solved why they call the German eyes "hand-blown", as hand blowing glass usually implies blowing air into a bubble and create a vase or similar open-shaped vessel, not solid all-glass insides like eye??????

What a nice welcome! I thank you!

I've not made bears for a long time now. I think the last one was in 2000.

As for the "hand-blown" question, the same issue comes up all the time in the glass world. Technically, most teddy bear eyes aren't blown at all, as you mentioned. Many doll eyes, however, are blown. I think the terminology is used for convenience and, possibly, out of laziness: Most people have a point of reference when you say "blown glass". Teddy bear eyes, with a few exceptions, are "hand dipped", which isn't a process that the majority of folks are familiar with.

I'm enjoying my work as a glass blower! I make small blown vessels that can be displayed or worn as a pendant. I teach all over the world, and have a studio for blowing glass in my home.

Debbie

Cat Gabriel Sep 22, 2008

I've never made a bear larger than 6 inches, but I can say that my collectors appreciate the small size of my bears/animals - I'm not sure if they would sell so well if they were larger...