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I have been wondering about this and apparently others have too. A few of us had begun to discuss it in the open/close eyelids thread. And rather than continuing the conversations there I figured a new thread was in order for the subject.
Would people be interested in getting/giving critques of their work?/ others work? I feel this can be a real asset for us beginners. I do realize as Bobbie said in the other thread that you need a THICK skin for a true honest critique. But for myself I feel this is one of the best ways to really improve on yourself. Knowing where you need to improve can be so helpful. There are times when you look at your own work--and know something is not right but can't pin down what is wrong. Where someone else might see right off what is wrong.
I used to frequent the art doll scuplture group on ebay and they had a weekly thread for critiques.At first it was merely everyone complimenting others work as they were too scared to give any actual criticism. But eventually There was a scale of critiquing--I don't really remember exactly how it worked but something along the lines of having just one part of a doll critiqued all the way to having everything critiqued-including the actual auction. going that far might not be necessary here.I myself would love to have just the actual bear/animal critiqued--though if my pictures are crummy I would like to know that too. 
Now the way Bobbie and Melanie Jayne were discussing would be an even better way as it would be anonymous and private. I'm just not sure how that would be done here. As they had discussed pictures are sent to several anonymous people who then carefully look over the photos and critique away. This sounds great,just not sure how the logistics of it would work. Ideas? comments?
Beth
Tami Eveslage Original Teddy BearsI think it is a great idea. I have never had my bears critiqued, but like you, I have had my dolls critiqued and it is very helpful. One thing that was gratifiying was when I realized the areas that were pointed out to me as needing work were what I had noticed myself. It is always a good thing when you learn to critique your own work. But for me that came after having professionals critique my work. Often I fall in love with my work as it comes into being in my hands (which is part of the delight of making bears and dolls) but then it makes it difficult to see your work with an objective eye. Having another artist critique it can help you learn to see your own work with an eye for what needs improvement. I think annonymous critiques are a good idea but I'm not sure how that would work on this forum.
TeenytinyteddybearsThat is such a good idea. I had 3 bears in a comp once and was more impressed with coments like " accessory slightly too heavy" and things like that. Was nice to hear I had neat seams and correct placement of ears and eyes, but the constructive comments are the ones that stuck the most. And it is no good asking someone what they think and they just say "its cute". For me to look at detail properly I take photos with Macro. That shows up any out of place stitch, very unforgiving and unemotional. But still would be good to hear from people in the know.
Little Bear GuyI think it's a great idea.
1) One person needs to be the contact between the person requesting to be critiqued and the artist doing the critiquing.
2) This person also has to choose the artist that are going to do the critiquing and that must be kept secret.
3) The critique request is sent to the person who then send the information on to the artist.
4) The artist then send back their critiques to the person in charge and they in turn put the information all together and send back to the person who requested to be critiqued.
Does this make any sense, I know what I'm talking about but hard to write it down. This way only one person knows who the artist are that are critiquing and who is being critiqued. The artist themselves would also have to remain anonymous .
just a though
hugs
Shane
Back Road BearsWho decides who the professional artists are who do the critiquing? Self chosen? Will they have professional "critiquing" experience in being objective, leaving personal preferences aside?
Photos can be used to critique the physical appearance, but what about what you can't see: how tight the seams are... ladder stitch quality... matching thread color...are the eyes tight and secure... are all the joints the same tightness... is the stuffing even, joints covered... if weighted is it properly balanced....
I've served on the fiber jury for the state artisan league I'm member of.... we used photos to determine if the physical appearance was appealing enough to then bringing the artist in for an in person critique before a formal jury process began. Upon occasion I'd be very shocked and disappointed at the actual quality of the work once I got my hands on it. Other times what didn't seem to be of any great quality in a photo would be simply spectacular in person. Photos are a tough critiquing medium for anything beyond the basics.
I suppose in this day and age, as a majority of artists seem to sell mainly on the internet, a photo critique is quite sufficient. I'm just sharing my thoughts and experiences for whatever its worth... or not worth! LOL! 
Shane's middle-man(woman) suggestion could be a very good one. In addition I think both the critiquing artist and the maker/artist requesting the critique should be kept annonymous.
A form with a detailed list of qualities, charactistics, technique execution, etc to be critiqued would need to be created and followed for all critique requests. One that can be completed and emailed easily from professional artists to middle person to clients requesting critique. A specific time frame should be set... for example artists have 2 weeks from receipt of client's photos to critique, complete form and return to liason for delivery to client. As the one who has anxiously sent off photos to be critiqued the last you want is to wait some unknown period of time, have weeks go by and then have all that self-doubt set in when you don't hear anything.
If there is a charge for this critique service that's another whole ballgame that has to be worked out... how much... what form of payment accepted and when... if a liason is involved they need a cut... then there are liability issues... and tax concerns... am I sucking the fun out of this yet? Sorry!!! All my years of business management education and experience are kicking in here! 
The overall concept/idea is great and it's been done in the doll world so can't be that hard to do and must be effective! I'm often asked by newer artists who do my shows or attend them if I or someone there could critique their work for them... give them some direction... help them become a better artist. I admire their desire to grow and improve their work... we all could use constructive feed back on our work from time to time! Having a truly professional and non-biased critique of one's work could prove invaluable! (Edited to add that YES... thick skin is a must!!!!)
Can't wait to see where this leads! 
Drea's BearsWeird, I was just thinking the same thing this week Beth!
I was thinking of asking a few people for honest opinions of my bears so I can better focus my direction and energy, I've been feeling a bit blurred lately and need a push (or kick) in the right direction 
. I know that it's sometimes hard to see what's going on if you are too close to something (like if you've been staring at it too long) I sometimes know something 'isn't quite right' but I can't quite put my finger on it.......I feel like I need another perspective, or to see the work through another set of eyes.
I like your idea of keeping anonymity Shane, that way there is no pressure....hopefully. The problem would be finding someone with a similar vision or interest I guess.........and some one who is willing/able to take the time.
And yes, you would certainly need to have a thick skin.
AndreaM 
Little Bear GuyDaphne I don't think there would be a charge involved, I think basically these people just wanted someone to look at their work and give them an honest opinion. Since one does not have the bear in front of them they can oly really critique as to what they see in the picture, perhaps really detailed pics will be required, close up of the face, paw pads, back view, stuff like that It would have to be done via pics as there is no way someone is going to be shipping a bear all over the place . As for who the artist are going to be doing the judging it will be up to whoever wants to set this up and run with it. I would assume they would take into consideration the expertise the person has to critique the work and such. I know I don't but I'm sure there are people on TT who hold that experience but it's whether they want to do it or not.
big hugs
Shane
Back Road BearsThe mention of a fee involved came up in another discussion about this... which is the only reason I mentioned it here.
And I completely realize no one is shipping bears for critiquing... just mentioned all that CAN'T be critiqued by photos for no other reason than to make the observation. Having made a few purchases from artists I didn't know over the internet I've been disappointed just once or twice by the quality of craftsmanship even though the bear definitely had the 'awwww' factor! I do realize the discussion here of critiquing ones work is for the appearance only.
Little Bear Guy I do agree with you Daphne that I to have received bears that did not live up to what I expected. Although they looked great in the pics in person was a different story.
Sorry I didn't realize that the issue of cost had come up in another thread.
big hugs
Shane
Love Bear ForeverI think the idea is great.
I do not really mind to pay for people to critiquing my bears as it is like you taking an exam to know where is your level, right?
Speically in Taiwan, we do not have many shows here.
All you heard from others will be very cute, very nice, very adorable...... All those nice comments
(PS: Even the teacher teach me how to make bears tell me it is nice when I find myself the bear was poorly made..... 
)
I really want to know how is my bear is real.
Specially the workmanship, stuffing if is enough, eyes/ears position if is good or balance.
Only when we get real comments then we can improve, isn't it?
I wish this idea can come true...... :pray:
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)Shane, are you sure you weren't zipping over Chicago area last night? I'd swear you were looking over my shoulder as I typed, what with the questions/situations you posed.
To make this short, I'll re-post the branch-off from the other thread, when Melanie Jayne, Beth & I all input about Critiquing:
Of course, this is a bare outline - there is a lot more to fleshing it out, but it gives you an idea of where we were heading in our conversation:
That is a very good idea, Melanie Jayne. We do have this in place in one large miniature list that I moderate.
- It's called a Mentoring program.
- The person sends us at least 6 images (up to 10) from a set number of angles.
- The panel was very carefully chosen for their expertise in the field that will be critiqued, as well as showing a general overall knowledge of great bearmaking skills.
- In our list we have about 8 - 9 Mentors. We have ONE the Intermediary, who is the nly one to know the identities of both the participants and the Mentors.
- A list was kept of willing (thick-skinned!) participants and when asked, the images were forwarded to the intermediary, who forwarded them on. When we have finished with a few, the next few are given permission to submit their images. This prevents bottlenecks.
- The images are sent to each of the Mentors (we have about 8 or 9) and usually get responses from most returned within the 2 week time period, as some are away/ill/bus/etc.
- We use the 'point system' of the OZ comp work, and have added specialized questions that apply to our particular materials & techniques that we work with.
This can be custom tailored: the time period can lengthened or shortened, as well as the number of images, total number of judges, number of judges sending back the form before collating them for the 'petitioner'....
The only thing that hits me wrong is the fee involved. (Initially in the other thread it was suggested that a small fee could be attached, but we had no need for this)
This could open up a horrid Pandora's Box and I don't think anyone would want the headaches & heartaches involved I could see attendant with this, for the few dollars involved.
We do it merely for the love of it and for helping other who sincerely wish to improve and want to learn from those who excel.
And it is totally anonymous - and we do warn UP FRONT - DO NOT APPLY if you are Thin-Skinned!
We are most definitely NOT cruel but if the ears are obviously on crooked/mismatched or the limbs are not jointed very snugly or the stitches show - those will be checked off on the Crit Sheet, so the bear maker knows a few specific areas that they need to work on, as well as what they have done very well!
The Mentors are 'honest to a fault', extremely thorough and it has really been helpful to those who are wishing to learn but afraid to speak up (how are they to know who of us are newbies too or who might object to being asked for the secret of The Nose Of The Century?) or an old hand who wishes to try a new skill but has no idea where to begin, fails miserably on their own, and having an established name, is now too shy to ask for help (this did happen..)
It takes about 15 minutes to really examine the bear's pix and check through the critique, adding a few lines at the bottom. (Much more time can be spent, and usually is by conscientious Mentors, but the minimum point system/crit sheet & the few lines take about that long so it's not an onerous task.
Yes, pix show only so much - it's not like holding a bear in one's hands, but we've all seen bears and looked at auctions and thought "Oh dear, they've just paid eBay $11.45 in fees and their bear won't get a second look." Because we know the laundry list of basic items that are not going to appeal to those looking for OOAK, Artist Bears, mostly for lack of skills or practice.
More face problems could be solved by the bear makers themselves by drawing a 'plus' sign, lining up the North to South lines right down the center of the face/head and (hopefully) have the bottom edges of the eyes sit on the crossbar, the East to West line.
Now turn the picture upside down, so you look at the picture objectively as separate but (supposedly) matching items): instead of seeing an expression, you see the nose's/muzzle's stuffing, stitching, shading, plucking, crookedness.
From just those 2 drawn marks, almost every feature of the face can be measured for distance: are both pairs of eyes, ears, corners of the mouth, etc... all beginning and ending at the same distance?
It is amazing what a Plus sign and an upside down picture will reveal.
That''s just one thing that we teach our members to do for themselves, and which a Mentor will also remind them to do.
I myself think that this would be a valuable service; just keep the money angle out of it.
Drea's BearsOMG Bobbie that plus sign is a great idea.....it seems so logical to hear you describe it but I never would have thought of that in a million years!!!!!!!
That's why I love this place! 
AndreaM
Little Bear Guy Maybe I just got inside your head for a few minutes Bobbie (it's a scary place :crackup: :crackup: :hug: ) I think it's a great idea and I am sure people who enjoy the mentoring aspect.
big hugs
Shane
Bobbie, Thank you for reposting all from your other thread! I am a computer dumm dumm 
so didn't know how to get it over to this thread. otherwise I would have as this method is fantastic.
Beth
Creative Design Studio (RKR4CDS)Beth, I just copy & pasted; Should I bring over your post & the the bits?
I had a bad start this AM, beginning this a 7 AM which is about 2 hours too early for me, hit a wrong key which brought up another webpage and instead of hitting the Back arrow I clicked the red - Close, which evaporated my whole post.
So I retyped in Text Edit (Word Pad) and will paste in here now.
Shane, even I don't go poking around in the cobwebby dark cubbyholes up there.... scary....
Thank YOU, Andrea! It is an original idea, though one I've shared in classes forever so I would hope that it is being used by many already. I'd post a picture but all of those on this machine are others' work and I haven't permission to use here.
I'll flesh it out a bit more. I use this Plus sign and another 4 - 6 sets of parallel colored lines, depending on how many things are out of line and need to be pointed out.
I'm not sophisticated enough (my poor neglected website can attest to this!) to be able to draw with Photoshop CS or Illustrator so I drag the flipped image onto a Word doc and I use Word drawing tools.
It is amazing what flipping the image upside down alone will show - and it works best with a photo because that flattens out the planes of the face so your eye doesn't see them as a nose, a cheek, 2 eyes. etc... It's another matter of not seeing the forest for the trees. When something looks off or wrong but you can't quite see what it is - try this.
#1 line goes straight down through the center of the eyes. Unless these have been torqued or skewed on purpose for a character, this will also exactly bisect the nose, mouth and chin.
#2 line is 90° across the first; it sits across the bottom of both eyes. If they are set exactly across from each other, here's where the smallest variation will show.
All other lines will always be drawn at exact 90° angles; N to S and E to W, parallel to each other, in a different color for each feature. Most will have 2 sets of lines, beginning & ending points of ears, eyes, mouth, either or both horizontally & vertically.
For example Ears will have horizontal lines representing where they start and stop as sewn to the head, but also HOW FAR AWAY FROM THE # 1 & #2 lines they are.
For that's the heart of this exercise; beyond showing the 'droop' of one eye being set lower than the other, if one has developed a bad habit that isn't noticed (one well-known e Bay miniaturist consistently sews the ears on with one further forward and higher on the head than the other - and she must never notice.) it's also a good tool for beginners to use to note how far off from the standard everything-exactly-perfecty-matched their work is, that comes with much practice.
Different colored parallel lines are drawn down the ACTUAL corners of each feature, horizontally/vertically, Muzzles, nose stitching, eyes, ears, mouths, colorings, eyebrows - everything added to the face.
These are then measured from the 2 main Center lines and if there is a difference you'll know what needs to be fixed, whether it means going all the way back to stuffing the muzzle more on one side or just sewing one of the ears in a balance to the other.
It's like laying a grid system over your work but it leaves out all of the lines you don't need.
This can be part of the Critique or not, it depends on the thrust of the Crit: what is the impetus of what it's trying to accomplish. This could be a excellent (improvement) technique for Mentoring because the face is what is the first thing that touches a collectors'' heart or not. When I see something I like, price is the second consideration. It's definitely in the equation, but sometimes it's not the main consideration.
And that's my Tip for today!
Posts: 52Bobbie, I'm sorry to quote you from the previous thread, but you're exceptionally well spoken on this topic!
I've seen open mouths or beautifully stitched noses & sculpted eye sockets, on bears that have crooked muzzle seams, ears & eyes that don't match in placement, fur trapped in seams with no attempt made to pull/brush it out, footpads sewn in crookedly and unmatched to each other, sewing stitches that show through to the front when stuffed.
These aren't bears that are made to look vintage, these are on bears that have had features added because the makers feel that following the most current trends will make their work more appealing and therefor sell better. It is done for the money instead of doing it for the honor of excelling in one's own mind.
You've just described my first and second attempts at bearmaking. I was laughing as I read this and thought 'oh no, she's described my bears perfectly!' although, I recognize those things as faults on my end - a lack of control at making bears versus 'vintage handmade'. I think some elements of handmade and a little worn around the edges are beautiful but they must be done conciously and they must be put in intelligently. Otherwise you end up with a mess. An obvious mess.
It would have been kinder to these creations to have not shown these images, as paw pads with uneven marker spots are not that attractive.
Laughing still - Booker, my first bear, has very uneven marker spots on his footpads.
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As for the critque concepts, I love them. It's like a bearshow without a winner - you get the benefits of having professionals look over your work and let you know what you can improve on without the added pressure of having to win a contest at the same time.
Critique is the most important element to being an artist next to making the art itself. In any medium, any spectrum, it is incredibly important - sometimes we do not perceive our faults and mistakes like others can. Once they are described and pointed out, we are able to improve by watching out for them next time around.
What I MUST add and what I must impart is: A checkmark based system is fine to point out flaws/mistakes at first glance but critique is only truly helpful if there is a DESCRIPTION that follows. Critique is helpful if it is described, thought over, detailed in it's error correction, and professional in it's tone. Why do you think, as a critiquer, the nose is crooked? Uneven gusset shape? Poor matching? Bad stuffing? If the pawpads are uneven, maybe there is a method to making them straighter? Where are they off exactly and by about how much? Some items don't need a full description but some absolutely do. You can't help someone impove by checking off their mistakes on a list - you must tell them where, how, and why the fault is the way it is (by your own estimation, because it's the critiquer's help we're looking for here!). You could even make digital notes on the submitted photograph itself, circling places that need help or correction, to make it very clear where the mistake is.
It also means that the person submitting the bear for critique needs to send very good, very up close, numerously angled photos detailing all aspects of their bear. They have to WANT you to look for errors. INSPECT for flaws. Find their mistakes and correct them. This isn't a bear contest with a pretty photo - this is critique and critique alone. You can't send one pretty picture and have people critique at face value.
That's my input!
