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All Bear Jun 1, 2005

Hi, I'm hoping someone out there might have a word or two of advice for me.

I have a small problem I haven't encountered before. :(

I recently sold a bear on Ebay.  He was purchased using 'buy it now' and the customer paid immediately using Paypal.  I wrote to say thank you for the prompt payment and said that I would ship the bear as soon as the Paypal funds cleared into my bank account.  My purchaser felt it was unfair of me to wait until the funds were in my bank account.  As the shipping on the bear is expensive (will probably cost me about £40.00 approx $70) and the post offices here in the UK insist on cash payments (no credit cards) it didn't occur to me that my purchaser would expect me to ship the bear before I have the transaction funds in my bank account.  We are talking a maximum of 4/5 days for the transfer of funds from Paypal to the bank.

Does anyone know of any Paypal or Ebay policy on this matter, or indeed, can anyone tell me if they think I am not being reasonable and should ship ahead of receiving cleared payment from Paypal? 

The delay from Paypal sure is a frustrating one for both seller and purchaser in this instance! :/

Thanks for your thoughts,
Paula.

Shelli Retired Help Advisor, Banner SponsorJun 1, 2005

Hmmm.  This is a tough one. 

I'm sure you specified in your auction that buyer pays shipping.  And she has, by using PayPal; the funds (including shipping costs) have been promised and sent -- or so it appears from her end anyway -- and it's just YOUR bank holding up the final transfer of cash from her hands to yours.  As she sees it, she has already paid.  So what's your problem, lady? ;):D:P

Well, I understand your "problem" all too well.  Even bear artists who sell regularly and at good prices are not living high on the hog on our bearmaking income.  That means that sometimes, there isn't a spare $70 hanging around in the ol' wallet to cover such a high shipping pricetag.  And, from OUR perspective -- great, wonderful, responsible customer paid right away!  But also -- bank account still missing all funds.

So I get your position completely.

I think if it were a check payment I, personally, would definitely wait until all funds cleared.  You wouldn't KNOW for certain the check was good until it landed in your account.

With PayPal, though, I think I would just fork over the money to cover the lag between the customer payment and the bank delivery of her funds.  There is no question it WILL arrive in your account, in the amount promised.  It's just a question of when.

If I really, truly, literally could NOT afford to cover that lag with my own money, I would actually tell the customer just that.  "I'm having a tight month and although you were wonderful to pay so quickly, the funding for this purchase won't appear in my bank account for four days, so I'm sorry but shipment will have to wait until I have your actual funds in hand."  Something like that.

You're such a sweetie to investigate this problem publicly.  I think you're doing everything just right and have taken no missteps whatsoever.

Probably, it's just the case that -- like most collectors, myself included -- your collector is just monstrously impatient to get her wonderful new Paula Carter teddy!!!!!

Good luck,

Wisdom Bears Jun 1, 2005

Hi Paula,
                 Personally ,I just send the Bear without waiting on the cheque from Paypal to clear, because you are covered by Paypal anyway, and the postage will arrive in your account in 5-7 days. Plus you maybe offending a New Customer that  intends to buy again from you.  I think its very much a catch 22 situation,where she has paid for a bear that is still in your posession,so to speak.  Its still annoying and most of us have had to deal with this situation too at one time or another.

Hugs Rita xxxxx

Winney Jun 1, 2005

I am glad you have posted this problem..as I have  never sold on Ebay so it is valuable information all us newbies need. I feel relieved that Paypal guarentees that the funds WILL BE in your account in 4 to 5 days. If that were not the case then I would not be too happy to stick my financial neck out that far. Most of us are operating on a very slim budget ...hand to mouth .....Winney

All Bear Jun 1, 2005

Hi Ladies,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.  It's a tricky one.  Shelli, you've hit the nail spot on the head with your comments ...

I'm not at all concerned about the security of the payment as I am certain it will turn up (as all the others have!) in my bank account in a few days' time.  The thing I was curious about was the expectation regarding the seller's right to wait to ship the item until the funds have been received and are available to be used to pay for the shipping cost.  As Shelli says, there are times when the odd $70 isn't spare to cover the interim period.  The problem seems to be the transfer time between Paypal and the seller's bank account.  Very annoying for both seller and purchaser!

Well, you'll all be interested to hear that I have heard from Ebay!  They say that it is the seller's right to define their terms and conditions regarding shipping.  They suggest that it is best to detail these terms on the auction listing.  They also say that it is up to the bidder to make an enquiry before placing a bid, if they are uncertain of the seller's policy.

I hope that piece of info is helpful to those of you who are wondering, as I was, what is considered 'reasonable' in this instance!

Wisdom Bears Jun 1, 2005

Thanks Paula for giving us this information, I will certainly remember it for the future. Hope your customer was understanding. Hugs Rita xx

Laura Lynn Banner SponsorJun 1, 2005

Hi Paula!

I just wanted to be sure... she did not pay by "e-check" thru Paypal did she?  If she did... you need to wait for it to clear just like a normal personal check.  Your notice from Paypal would clearly state that it was an "e-check" if it is...

Also.. I'm not sure what you have available to you in the UK, but can you get the Paypal debit card?  It's available free of charge to Premier members.  With it I can use the money in my Paypal account as soon as it's there like a Mastercard.  At the grocery store I can also get cash back.  I can also use it at an ATM, but there are fees for that. 

But like I said... that's in the US and not sure what they offer in the UK...

Good luck!

Shelli Retired Help Advisor, Banner SponsorJun 1, 2005

Ooh, I forgot, I have that card too!  People haven't been using PayPal with me of late for the most part, tho, so I forget I even have that option.  Laura is right; you can use any PayPal monies IMMEDIATELY; there is no wait whatsoever to transfer to your bank.

I'm a dodobird, tho, and get confused when I have to track too many accounts, so mostly I just transfer funds and wait for them to show up in my online statement!

Laughing...

Just Us Bears Jun 2, 2005

I found this topic interesting Paula, so thanks for raising it. I have always tended to think that once the payment has been made into your Paypal account...that's it, it's final and the cash will be yours. I tend to just leave the cash in my Paypal account to buy stuff on ebay and when/if I get a couple of hundred dollars in the account, then I transfer the money over to my own bank account. I wait until there's a reasonable amount because as far as I know, Paypal charges a fee to do the transfer.
Someone recently said on another list that she had been 'taken' by a Paypal sale. I have posted her email below...it has certainly made me more wary about Paypal. I will still use it..but will always purchase a tracking receipt and send using registered mail. But as far as I can see it..the person can still claim they were wrongly done by and get a 'credit'.
Anyway...see what you all think.

This is a warning about pay pal. Their system is flawed!
>
> I had a user file a case when she didn't receive goods, but the
problem
> was she needed to pay more postage. When she paid the rest of the
> postage, I posted her goods, she got them and left positive
feedback.
>
> However she didn't close the case in paypal. I got an e-mail from
them
> today saying that they were going to take the money out of my
account!
>
> I rang them to explain that she had received the goods and asked
them
> to look at the feedback she left me on ebay.
>
> After speaking to FOUR people and being told that
> 1. Feedback on ebay isn't reliable
> 2. I needed to have a tracking receipt (which she didn't pay for)
>
> I also asked them that if I bought goods through paypal, paid for
them,
> received the goods and then claimed that I didn't receive them,
that I
> could then be making money and getting free stuff, they told me
YES!!!!!
>
> So please be warned that if you send ANYTHING where someone has
paid by
> paypal, charge them for registering and or insuring the item.
>
> After half an hour of yelling at them, they are finally going to
give
> me a credit of that amount they will be taking out. >
> I will NEVER deal with paypal or overseas buyers again!

>

Winney Jun 2, 2005

Wow...that's terrible treatment...make Pay Pal scary to use....
Now, I don't know if I want to use Pay pal or not...Winney

Dilu Jun 2, 2005

Wow....Thank you so much Laura and Hayley - this is super important for all of us, buyers and sellers alike to be aware of. 

Talk about ethical issues. 

Thank you!

Dilu

Daphne Jun 2, 2005

So, what everyone here is saying is to "Cover Your Bare, err...Bear Bottom!"

I'd never send a bear uninsured for one! Insurance is included in my shipping fees on eBay and my website!

Also, I agree that once funds have been put into your paypal account, they are yours to do with as you please. Whether you choose to use the money for eBay purchases or deposit it into your bank account (which, by the way, there is no fee for that transfer) that is your decision but should not effect the buyer who sent you that money. So, if they've paid and you have the money to cover shipping then I think it should be sent right away. If you can't cover shipping, which is understandable too, then yes, tell the buyer the truth and hope they'll understand.

All good advice here. Great, albeit, sticky topic!

Hugs, Daphne

Just Us Bears Jun 2, 2005

Daphne,
I just realised from looking at my bank statement..that the fee I get charged when transferring money from my Paypal account to my bank account is a currency conversion fee. But it's still only a dollar or so.

All Bear Jun 2, 2005

Just popped back and found so many more emails!  Thanks to all of you for giving this matter some thought.

Unfortunately, we don't have the Paypal debit card available to us here in the UK, so that means our only choice is to transfer funds to our bank account and wait for them to clear before we can use them as REAL money!  By that, I mean for transactions in the High Street for example where we need to be able to use our bank accounts.  Naturally, this includes the cost of shipping at the post office.

Winney,  I have used Paypal for quite a while and find that it is especially popular with my overseas customers as it makes it so easy for them to pay.  Some still prefer to use their Visa or MasterCard direct with me which is fine, as I have a merchant account.  However, Paypal's financial charges are more favourable for me.  I offer both options to my customers and most opt for Paypal because it is so convenient and more secure than sending credit card details by fax or email.  I've never had any problems with Paypal and so can't really comment on the negative side of using their services.  I do know some people have run into issues with them as Hayley mentions above.

The cost of transferring money from Paypal to a UK bank account is minimal.  There is a £0.25 (approx $0.44) charge if transferring less than £50.00 (approx $88.00) and it's free to transfer larger sums.

I have listed on Ebay.com for the first time recently (usually use co.uk) and was wondering how the currency conversion would work when transferring funds from USD to GBP.  It seems Paypal sorts it out and it turns up in my account as GBP.  I assume there must be a fee somewhere along the line for this?  I expect I'll unravel it at some point!  The biggest confusion for me was making sure I set my minimum bid and 'buy it now' price at a reasonable rate in USD ... needless to say, I made a right mess of that first time!

All Bear Jun 2, 2005

Hi Laura, thanks for mentioned the 'e-check' thing - I didn't know about that!  In this particular case, it is a straight forward Paypal payment.  I will make sure I am aware in future of the 'e-check' situation!

SueAnn Help Advisor, Banner SponsorJun 2, 2005

Paula . . . what an extremely cute avatar bear!!  He's adorable!! 

Laure Jun 2, 2005

Terrific new avatar bear, Paula! 

I've just started receiving paypal pmts, so it's good to be privy to this talk.  As for Ebay, haven't started that one yet, seems confusing and intimidating, but I can do it.  I can...I can...I can!

All Bear Jun 2, 2005

Glad you like the avatar!  I fancied a change. :)

Laure .. using Ebay to sell is pretty easy once you've tackled it a couple of times!  You can do, you can!

Just Us Bears Jun 3, 2005

My hubby did a search on Paypal today, and wasn't comforted at all to come across a whole website called PaypalSucks.com!!!!

Laura Lynn Banner SponsorJun 3, 2005

Just remember that people who have problems with something are more likely to speak up... and speak LOUDLY!

Patscrafts Originals Jun 4, 2005

Hello All, I've used paypal and ebay for a few years now, so far no problems (crossing my fingers)  I do state in my auctions I ship twice each week. (Some sellers ship only once a week) For paypal payments, I ship right away. I only have a 'personal' account w/Paypal so no credit cards, I have my own merchant account for credit cards. either way, once paid, the bear ships the next day I do ship. I always tell the buyer when they pay, what day the bear is going to ship, so no confusions. Lots of times they tell me "no hurry" on the shipping. I also send them the tracking info once shipped. I did get one "e check" payment, and waited for funds to clear in my Paypal account before sending. I think the e checks are the checks the credit card co's send you.... Also, on the other side, when buying on Ebay, its not unusual for me to receive items 2, 3, even 4 weeks after I've paid for them thru Paypal! and thats within the US! cash payments too!  so how long after (payment) did you wait to send the bear actually? ...I also wanted to mention, as a rule, I always deposit funds into my bank account from Paypal soon after they come in. I always thought Paypal could come in and take those funds away for some silly reason. I will especially do that now! I also have heard of some things Paypal did on a credit card sale on ebay, (it was on a Ebay message board long ago) and that scared me too. paypal was wrong, and the seller did all things correct and lost the money. Sorry to get off subject, wanted to put my 2 cents in!

Daphne Jun 5, 2005

Laura is right - people are always more apt to speak up when something goes wrong and they are mad. How many people say to the cashier "You did a great job ringing up my groceries" or to a fellow driver on the street "Hey, you are a good driver". There is a 'hate' website for just about everything! Maybe even teddy bears! (OK, I hope not.)

Some things you just have to try for yourself. Educate yourself, cover yourself as best you can and give things a chance. What doesn't work for one person may work great for another. Paypal is used by thousands and thousands of people. Nothing is perfect, we are all human, the odds of things going wrong now and again are high. But remember, some of these folks who have gotten burned by paypal or a buyer may not have communicated or understood things clearly or followed proper procedures. Many folks don't admit to their errors and put the blame on someone else.

Just my extra two cents! :)

Hugs, Daphne

Judi Jun 5, 2005

Laure, Ebay is fun and very easy to do.

I like paypal because it is convenient and easy for many of my buyers,,,especailly overseas.  I have a premeire busniess account with paypal so I can accept credit cards with unlimited amounts.  A basic paypal account limits you to only being able to accept $600 every three months.  Now, that may have changed...it has been a while since I upgraded my account.  There is a 4% fee ..that is the only downside.

An e-check means that someone is paying you with funds from their personal bank account so it takes three to four business days for the funds to clear.  Credit cards should work right away...HOWEVER...there is a risk of "charge backs".  I like to transfer my funds to my bank shortly after I recieve it...I too worry a bit that paypal or some one else may try to hack in a steal .   

WARNING:  there is A LOT of paypal SPAM out there with no-goods trying to "update" your paypal information.  You never want to respond to any email from "paypal"...just in case...instead, go to your paypal account.  If there are any "updates" needed it will be posted on your account.

I really think they do try to make it safe and fool proof but there always seems to be some people who try to outsmart computers and do wrong.

I have been using paypal for about 6 years with out any problems so far...hhhmmm maybe I shouldn't have said that!

It is good to hear all your thoughts and stories.

Laure Jun 6, 2005

Judi,

You are so thoughtful to break it all down for me like this.  I have had a PayPal account for probably a couple of years now, but for some reason, people preferred to give me their cc#'s over the phone until recently. 

I have had an Ebay account for about the same amt of time, but have not gotten up the courage, or felt I had significant time to devote to learning how to do it.  I'm getting closer to feeling ready for it now, though.  I doubt that it would really take me as long to master it as I have envisioned.  I have seen some offerings that have really nice looking templates to display them in.  I think I would like to do mine that way.  There is always so much work waiting to get done, though. 

In the past few days I have completed a magazine article and 2 personal bios for ad deadlines, and now the only writing I have to do is an article for Teddy Bears on the Net.  It would appear that when that is completed I could then dedicate time to learning Ebay, but, alas, I have a website-building project that is sitting partially completed and a big show coming up in Julyn (no new bewars made yet), with a several day trip to Oregon planned in the interim--No complaints, mind you; I'm meeting Winney and Dilu along the way. 

See how it goes?  Busy, Busy, Busy.  Some people seem to thrive on this kind of activity, and really I find it rewarding too, but I'm not one of those admirable quick thinking, quick acting people like some of our esteemed friends are.

So...I'm working on not stressing about the pile I'm under.  Meanwhile, I appreciate having friends on this board who can relate to my plight, with similar ones of their own, who lighten my psychological load with their caring concern, useful advice and delightful humor and nonsense.

Appreciative Hugs,