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Mountain Dreamer BearsWow, gorgeous cards ladies! :clap: :clap: :clap:
When I first read Shelli's original post, I had never heard of artist cards and I didn't quite get the whole idea. I was thinking trading cards more like baseball cards, but with bears and a little fancier. :redface: :redface: Now I'm embarrassed. These cards are so much more!
Having checked out some of the links I'm amazed. And inspired! I thought it was a great idea before, Now I think it's a awesome idea I can't wait to see what everyone comes up with.
Shelli, will there be a new forum just for cards, like there is for miniatures, felting, etc.?
I don't know how everyone feels about just trading vs selling cards but, I think it would be good to find a way to get collectors involved too.
Sue Ann, I just noticed your new avatar! I love it!!
hugs,
I've been in contact with Nancy Tillberg, who brought this idea, and the idea of relating it to bears, to my attention... and she's written back to say she and her NORTH COUNTRY TEDDY BEARS site are very interested in hosting a trading card swap forum, "officially" geared to just that purpose and end. The ideas, still in the development stage, include possibilities for both flat-out trades, and purchases of cards that might be more collectible, or come with some kind of price tag attached. That way, everyone is happy... the traders and sellers alike.
Many more details to come as things develop... but the word from Nancy is, GET CREATING THOSE CARDS! Because she anticipates less than a month -- she said more like a couple of weeks, but I don't want to pressure her publicly -- to get this entirely set up.
No computer know-how required; GO CRAZY!!! and ENJOY!!!
Posts: 1,277Shelli, thanks for bringing this to our attention. It really is a wonderful idea and sounds like so much fun! And a big thanks to Nancy, of course, for hosting the swap forum.
I can't wait to see more cards! Shelli, Aleta, and Sonya- great job on your first TTC's!
Apple Dumpling DesignsI've been lurking for a few days...not because I like being a lurker but because my keyboard went out...stupid computers.
Anyway, I've been following this thread and I LOVE IT!!! What a great idea!!! I've always loved making greeting cards and scrapbooking stuff. Although I admit I've been very very lazy about it for a few years. So...while out of computer commission, I've been dragging out some of my card making stuff...and the creative juices are flowing. I may be in trouble here. 
Shantell
What a great idea! I like everyone's cards so far. Will non-artists be able to get involved? I would like to be involved, but I couldn't give you a card because I don't make bears.
Chrissie, Nancy and I are in talks about how the swap forum/board/whatever she officially calls it, will function, and there will be the possibility to buy OR trade cards. Or, at least, that's the plan; she's a busy lady and there are some software issues and quirks to be un-pretzeled before this thing goes live.
So if, as a collector, you don't want to make, or don't feel comfortable making, a card, then you can always buy some ATC's and then trade THOSE... or, you can always just buy all the cards in your collection, when/if they are available.
The "pure" way of doing this is strictly artist to artist as a trade. But we're taking it to another level, by incorporating teddy bears, and including collectors, who obviously won't have bears of their own to include in their cards.
My knee-jerk impulse is to tell you to include a photo of your collection on a card of your own creation... but DON'T DO THAT!!!! Because, as nice an idea as it may be, you WILL be trampling on somebody's copyright and/or trademark, depending on what you show. So it's probably best for collectors NOT to show bears in their possession, but not created by their own hands.
:(
Just some thoughts...
Newcastle, OntarioShelli, I agree with all your comments about trademarks, but I'm also curious. I don't know the trademark laws that well, but I know in the art world, if an artist publishes a book of his art and someone buys it, they can legally cut up the book, frame the prints and sell them, with no repercusions. I also know artists have been trying to change the laws, but at least in Canada it hasn't been dealt with. So, my question is, once you have bought a bear from an artist, it belongs to they buyer, so I'm curious to know if the same type of laws apply? Anyone know any more than I do? This is me, just being nosey LOL! Can't wait to see more cards.
Hugs,
Brenda
Canna Bear PaintShelli, I agree with all your comments about trademarks, but I'm also curious. I don't know the trademark laws that well, but I know in the art world, if an artist publishes a book of his art and someone buys it, they can legally cut up the book, frame the prints and sell them, with no repercusions. I also know artists have been trying to change the laws, but at least in Canada it hasn't been dealt with. So, my question is, once you have bought a bear from an artist, it belongs to they buyer, so I'm curious to know if the same type of laws apply? Anyone know any more than I do? This is me, just being nosey LOL! Can't wait to see more cards.
This is really an issue of copyright, as opposed to trademarks (different creature altogether). As for someone buying a book with an artist's work in it and being able to sell prints off it... either this is something that is VERY different in the U.S. vs. Canada, or that's a myth in both countries. 'Course the laws may differ a little if the artist is 300 years dead or something.
Copyright here in the U.S. in non-transferrable in that whether you buy a painting or a bear, you do NOT get the rights to reproduction or likeness. You buy that one item, not the entire licensing agreement to it. Artists would be shooting themselves in the foot to sell any original painting, if any dope with a scanner and printer could sell a limitless number of prints off that painting the second they get their hands on it. Bear art is no different. If I bought an artist's bear, and then decided to tear it apart to steal the pattern, then made bears to sell off that pattern OR licensed that pattern to a manufacturer, that is a blatant copyright violation. I bought the bear and the bear only, NOT the rights to the bear. By that same token, if I bought an artist's bear and then had my mother paint a pretty picture of that exact bear, and then we decided to sell merchandise with the likeness or make prints off her painting to sell, this is also copyright violation. This is the kind of thing that gets traditional artists hopping up and down mad... and I know it is a problem as more advanced scanners and printers are in the hands of people in their homes. People manufacturing homemade prints off artists' work is a very real problem in the art world, and one I hope to never see transferred over to the bear world.
<sigh> Wouldn't it be easier if the entire world was just... well... honest? 
Kelly
Canna Bear PaintShould probably also add this, as trademarks were brought up. Here are some copyrights vs. trademarks differences. Copyrights in the US are automatic... basically, if you create something, it's yours. In our case, the bears we make our ours (presuming it was an original pattern and all that). It's easier to protect and defend your copyright if you have filed with the US Copyright Office, but that's not a necessity... you still hold the copyright. It is possible to transfer a copyright ONLY through paperwork at the US Copyright Office, just the sale of an item neither relinquishes nor transfers the copyright of that item to the buyer.
A trademark, which could be the name or symbol associated with a company, needs to physically be filed for, I think through the US Patent & Trademark Office. A trademark is not automatic, just because it is something you associate with your business or brand does NOT mean you are protected with a trademark. It also expires sooner, which means that it needs to be renewed every so often.
I should also mention that while I try to keep up to date on such topics, I am not an expert. Someone that is an expert is more than welcome to prove me wrong on any of this.
Cheers,
Kelly
Newcastle, OntarioHi Kelly,
Thanks for the info - what I am talking about is what is referred to in Canada as "book prints" and it's perfectly legal here. If an artist publishes a book with his art, and I (as an example) buy it, I am not re-producing their work, I am simply taking the book apart and framing the pages of the book for sale. I own the book, therefore I can do with it as I please. So, if you go to the cheaper stores like Zellers etc and they are selling artists work in frames very cheaply, everyone knows it's a "book print" It's done all the time and even some of the smaller galleries are doing it here, and believe me, I have been following this with interest for quite a while. It's perfectly legal, and there is nothing the artists can do about it. I know some of the better known Canadian artists ie Glen Loates, Robert Bateman, and Trisha Romance have been battling it for years, but nothing has changed. It may be very different in the U.S. as the laws are so different.
It's like the downloading of music - in the U.S. it's been deemed illegal and the Recording companies started going after people with lawsuits. Well, they can't do that in Canada - our Supreme court has deemed it perfectly legal and that's another law that recording artists keep trying to have changed here, but with absolutely no success so far. I'm not saying any of this is right (in fact I think it's awful) but that's just the way it is. Our laws really are very different.
Soooooo, I was just wondering if in Canada, it would be legal to print a picture of bears in our collections, since these bears belong to us now, especially if it was for trading and no monies were changing hands - basically I was thinking out loud. I'm sure, since we would be trading with U.S. artists, it would obviously not be something for people to pursue.
Hugs,
Brenda
Canna Bear PaintThanks for the info - what I am talking about is what is referred to in Canada as "book prints" and it's perfectly legal here. If an artist publishes a book with his art, and I (as an example) buy it, I am not re-producing their work, I am simply taking the book apart and framing the pages of the book for sale. I own the book, therefore I can do with it as I please.
Wow, that is really odd! Never heard of it, thanks for sharing! Funny thing how the laws can differ so much.
It's perfectly legal, and there is nothing the artists can do about it. I know some of the better known Canadian artists ie Glen Loates, Robert Bateman, and Trisha Romance have been battling it for years, but nothing has changed.
I think just about any artist I've ever known would foam at the mouth at the thought 
I think down here in the states we have become VERY proactive and agressive about copyrights, particularly in the last few decades. But I'm so used to the way it is dealt with here, it seems odd to hear that just over the border the law can be 'nah, go ahead and download that music file if you want it!'. And over here, we're suing little old ladies because their grandson's cousin's best friend's dog downloaded a song on her computer. 
Hugs,
Kelly
Newcastle, OntarioKelly, I agree that although our laws are very different, it is really frustrating for the artist community. Before our last federal election, a couple of weeks ago, I saw Canadian actors being pro-active for the very first time, demanding to know what the candidates would do for the performing arts, if they were elected That is something really unheard of here - I was really glad to see it.
Even our well known Canadian recording artists (ie Barenaked ladies and Avril Lavigne) were quoted last week in the paper as saying that although they don't like the current downloading laws in Canada, they certainly do not think legal action is the answer as that would be like saying "I'll sue you if you try and get my music on the computer this week, but at the same time, next week I want you to pay a fortune to see me perform in concert" - totally illogical! It's all very interesting.
Hugs,
Brenda
I knew Kelly would come to the rescue. Thanks for the very nicely worded and easy to understand explanations! You touched on the very points I was skimming over. Namely, that if someone took a photo of their bear collection for use on an ATC -- and that photo included original bears by Kelly Zimmerman, Brenda Power, and a mass-produced Winnie the Pooh wearing a shirt that had DISNEY! embroidered across the front -- that person would be violating both copyright and trademark laws... at least, here in the US.
To keep things simple and protect EVERYONE involved, I will bring this up with Nancy, and I think my personal suggestion, before talking to her at all and before thinking it through entirely, will be that ONLY ORIGINAL PIECES CREATED BY THE ATC ARTIST HIM OR HER SELF will be allowed for use as "bear art" on the ATC's for this particular swap forum. I'm sure Nancy will have things to say on this subject as part of the usual set-up, how-to, "sticky" kind of posts that most forums have as insurance against liability.
I learned a basic life premise in Biology, sophomore year in high school. From fascinating Mr. John Dozier, bless his heart. He was full of wisdom. A particular favorite you all will enjoy is:
Sometimes you get the bear.
Sometimes the bear gets you.
I never really did know what he meant by that, SPECIFICALLY, as it might apply to a 15 year old Catholic high school student from yuppie Silicon Valley, but it sure sounded wise.
Anyway... JD (as we called him, when he wasn't listening), when discussing the scientific method, had one word, and one word ONLY, he used to guide and instruct. And that word was: K.I.S.S.
It stands for:
Keep
It
Simple,
Stupid
And so, I think we should!, with this copyright/trademark/collection/bear issue.
Thanks for the fascinating dialogue, ladies. And Chrissie, thanks for bringing up a very important point. It saves us having to backtrack and figure this out later on!
Newcastle, OntarioShelli, I totally agree with you - logically it's the only decision you can make to protect everyone. I think my devil's advocate gene was rearing it's ugly head LOL! I love your teacher's take on life - sounds like he was a gem. If you can quote him all these years later, he certainly had am impact on you. Now here's something else I have never quite figured out - all the names you give to the grades in highschool. What year is sophomore - grade 10? We had 5 years of high school and it was grade 9-13 - pretty simple. Take care.
Hugs,
Brenda
Yes, sophomore is grade 10. Even in the US schools do things differently. But, generally, at least in California, and I do mean generally, because there are exceptions, school goes:
Preschool (private)
Elementary School (also called Primary School, or the Primary Grades)
Kindergarten
1
2
3
4
5
6
Junior High (also called Middle School)
7
8
High school (also called Secondary School)
9 Freshman
10 Sophomore
11 Junior
12 Senior
College
Freshman
Sophomore
Junior
Senior
(but sometimes people take 5 years, so they usually call themselves "5th year" at that point)
Some Jr. Highs are 6,7,8... and some are 7,8,9... but most, as far as I've heard, are 7,8... as a general rule.
Similarly, some high schools are 10,11,12.
Newcastle, OntarioThanks for the info - our school systems seem similar, except that we have junior Kindergarten and senior kindergarten. There aren't many middle schools either - most elementary schools are Jr. K - grade 8 and high school is 9-12 now that they have finally elimated grade 13, which I think is a shame. Our kids enjoyed the 5 years of high school and it let them grow up a bit before university. Anyway, I'm off to bed - more packing to do tomorrow.
Hugs,
Brenda
Bears-a-Bruin!Love, love, love this idea!!! Now you have my head buzzing with images and plans for cards.... 
Thankyou Shelli
Posts: 1,153I was up til 1:30 this morning, while my DIAL-UP was downloading some info that took 2 hours...and I decided to work on some ATC ideas. I had a wonderful time!!! and got some great ideas altho they were only sketched in colored pencil. I am afraid each of my cards will have to be individually done because I don't have the computer skills to make such grand cards as yours Shelli. Just beautiful. You are such a talented gal.
And the cards posted so far...well, WOW !!! They are just wonderful....This is going to be such a lot of fun.
We have a different granddaughter over for the weekend (they love to come to grandma and grandpas for the weekends) and this weekend is my little 'artsy' one...so we shall start Saturday morning off, with a trip to our wonderful scrapbooking stores in a near by town ( I know I will get her all inspried to make her own ATC's, she will be so excited and her drawing abilities at 10 years old are just outstanding, truly!) and then end up at Barnsley gardens for tea and a walk thru the gardens. Maybe we will get some ideas for a card there :dance:
This post is getting so long, I have to check it daily just to keep up with it.
:hug:
nanc....
Teddy Bear and FriendsI love the idea of ATCs. If I make a cool card, can I trade too? (Mine would have a plea for photos and digital specs on the back...)
Seriously, though, I would be happy to feature them. It's a neat extension of the art. My only warning: collectors will want your cards. If I put them in the magazine, that's some 30,000 of your closest friends asking for your cards. So that bears thinking about (no pun intended). What do you say when a collector asks to trade? Is it an artists-only deal? In that case, you might want to keep it 'underground' rather than publicizing it. If not, how can collectors participate? Are they allowed to make cards for trade, or do they have to beg, borrow, or steal an artist card to get started?
Keep me in the loop. In the meantime, I'll be using paper scraps, ribbon, and dictionary pages to craft a card. Please pass the glue dots!
Mindy
Back Road BearsNancy, can I come too? Sounds like a wonderful day!
Mindy, that's why I'm all for SELLING these cards, in addition to trading. As a collector, if I wasn't an aritst of any kind but a big fan of teddy bears and their artists, I'd want to be able to have a collection of these artist cards too. I don't think we should leave anyone out.
Just my 2 cents!
:hug: Daphne
Posts: 1,153Daphne...absolutely !! We will have a wonderful time...I mean does it get much better than gardens, walking, tea and scrapbooking?
Mindy, you know ...I was thinking of stating in my auctions that my ATC card will be included with each little 'friend' and I am going to do that on my website as well.
That way, for sure my collectors or buyers would have one of my cards. I am even thinking about personalizing their cards by putting a picture of the 'friend' they just purchased on the card...since I will be making them each individually, that would not be hard.
I don't think that would be against the ATC rules, I don't see anything wrong with my collectors having a card included with their purchase.
Ok...now I don't want everyone to poopoo my idea at one time....beeeee gentle!!!
:hug:
Nancy
Also, as I think about it...didn't Berta have some cards quite a while back (like a year or so ago) that she sold...my memory is a little fuzzy this morning, I will have to write Berta and ask her. I seem to remember that she did. I don't know what she called them but I will ask.
Canna Bear PaintMindy, you know ...I was thinking of stating in my auctions that my ATC card will be included with each little 'friend' and I am going to do that on my website as well.
That way, for sure my collectors or buyers would have one of my cards. I am even thinking about personalizing their cards by putting a picture of the 'friend' they just purchased on the card...since I will be making them each individually, that would not be hard.
I don't think that would be against the ATC rules, I don't see anything wrong with my collectors having a card included with their purchase.
Nancy, I think that is a really lovely idea. What about sending two cards with each purchased bear? One card featuring their newly purchased bear (for them to keep if they want), and one card featuring something else, that they could use in trades. That wouldn't be against any rules that I'm aware of.
Hugs,
Kelly
I was thinking of stating in my auctions that my ATC card will be included with each little 'friend' and I am going to do that on my website as well.
What a terrific idea! And to take it even further... why announce it at all? For some artists -- those not on eBay, or who don't have a web presence but make bears -- it could be very cool to just stick an ATC in the packaging when they ship bears, maybe with a brief description of what ATC's are and what they're used for.
It might be time to create brief verbage describing what ATC's are and what they're for... and then, someone can take that verbage and stick it onto an 8.5x11 template for people to download. Each individual ATC artist can then print the verbage on the paper of his/her choice, cut it out, and include it as an "explanation" of what this little card actually IS. Once its operational, you may want to point your collectors, in your verbage, to Nancy's upcoming swap/buy forum, where they can view/buy/trade for other ATC's.
Just brainstorming...
I do want to be sure to remind everyone that Nancy is monstrously busy and incredibly kind and that this is a huge task she's trying to undertake as basically a favor to the industry with no tangible benefit to her as a person or an artist, and which may run into obstacles of one kind or another. So let's all be sure, no matter what the outcome, to keep goodwill and gratitude flowing her way! One way or the other we'll get this thing up and running but it's my hope that, since Nancy got the juices flowing, it can involve her directly.
I love this thread. Can I say that without seeming obnoxious, since I started it??? I'm just a scrapbooker, without any time, and hardly any scrapbook pages actually complete, at heart.
We could eventually even have some little banner advertising that we are part of an ARTIST TRADING CARD guild or club or group or community, to post on our websites, and ABOUT ME pages. I do know some doll artists have placed banners within their auction listings about certain guild alliances -- not commercial enterprises but memberships or societies. Could be a thought... would have to check closely into eBay rules...
But for sure this is something we could stick on websites, etc.
Funny you should mention an artist guild, community, group, club......Have you noticed the PFATT and SSODS attached to eBay listings? Basically, artists grouping together. They've certainly caught my attention. I have both groups on my favorites list.
Annnnnyway, my thought was (and this is as far as I've been) was TBAGS. Teddy Bear Artist Guild and Society. It's rather catchy dontcha think?
Input please......good and bad. Come on, I can take it!!!
Warmest bear hugs, :hug:
Aleta
