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Canna Bear PaintSometimes people really do suffer for their art.
On another note, quite a few modern glues are what is called freeze/thaw stable. It means they can withstand multiple exposures to extreme temperatures, even to the point of well below freezing in some cases (0 degrees), without damage.
BlondheartIt was my understanding this forum was for tips and no nonsense practical advice. I gave you practical business advice based on my years of experience. I don't know if you consider yourselves business people, maybe that was wrong of me to assume you do. Maybe you would prefer information wrapped up in a pretty bow rather than straight forward tips and knowledge. As a result you got mad at me and try to make me look like a fool. Half of ya misquoted what I said and took things entirely out of context. It was not my intent to insult anyone or make you feel bad on here, my intent was to share the experience I have gained over many many years of trial and error on my own part and the part of other pioneer bear artists. I don't have to freely pass out my advice at all, even when you specifically ask me for it. I paid my dues to the bear community and don't owe anyone anything. So I am going to proverbially take my toys and go home. 
Maybe you think that's petty and that's fine with me. But when you have taught classes, done hundreds of shows and signings, and sold literally thousands of bears then you can tell me I am wrong and it's only MY opinion.
So it's been a pleasure meeting you, I wish you all well in your endeavors but I didn't sign on to get beat up when I am trying to help you. By the way Shelli, Van Gogh never sold anything in his lifetime. That 82 mill came over a hundred years later for his art. So at least we know he knew how to make a quality product that withstood the test of time even if he couldn't give them away while he was alive.
Have a wonderful day,
Kelly
Baird'sBears
Kim, I don't think it's possible to reread The Velveteen Rabbit too many times. As we get older and more tattered ourselves, it takes on another whole dimension of meaning!
Didn't Steiff use plastic safety eyes on their bears after the war? All of my Steiff animals had safety eyes.
We stuff the little critters with synthetic fiber.
Shelli's eyelid glue technique attaches the leather to the hard-packed stuffing, if I'm not mistaken.
Mohair fabric is relatively delicate, as furs go. It's not that hard to pluck or wear away. I have the old Steiffs to prove it.
I really don't think that choice of materials makes a bear any more or less 'artistic'. Some of the most beautiful bears I've ever seen are made of synthetics.
Just about any glue, except those designed for outdoor use, will lose its bonding ability in extreme cold, but now we know!
Stress--We TTers seem to have a lot of experience with stress! Strange but true, we can usually concentrate on what we love to do even when we can't concentrate on anything else.
I don't think Shelli suggested that VanGogh sold anything in his lifetime. I'm sure he could have used the $$ and would have welcomed the recognition but, wherever he is now, I suspect he's even happier with his prominent place in the pantheon of immortals.
LeatherWeld is wonderful stuff. I just noted that the label says "keep from freezing"! Winter travel is no fun . . .
Eileen
Fuzzbutt BearsI learned a bit about the relative longevity of bears when I had an apartment fire a few years ago. None of my bears burnt, but all were smoke damaged. The disaster-recovery company I hired to do the cleanup and fix up said they had an expert they subcontracted with do their stuffed animal and doll recovery. The harsh treatment necessary in getting the smoke damage out was equivilant to many years of natural (and unnatural) wear.
I found that the synthetic fabrics stood up to the cleaning process better than the natural fabrics overall, although the long-pile alpaca mixed with silk was in significantly better shape than the (felted) pure alpaca. The glass eyes of the artist bears came through much better than the plastic eyes (which scratched up and in one case melted). Interestingly the stiching of the artist bears held up better than that of the mass-produced ones -- none of my artist bears needed ears reattached. The tightly embroidered noses of the artist bears held up remarkably well, but the few embroidered-nose mass-produced bears I own needed some repair. Plastic noses held up fine, the scratches didn't show as much as on the plastic eyes. The best noses were ultrasuede glued over plastic -- no damage at all.
Two of my artist bears and one stieff bear had their stuffing dissolve, and one of those could not be restuffed because the backing of his fur became too fragile. He was a designed to look "well-loved" anyway, so fortunatly now he's just more lovable.
The glue that held some silk flowers to the head of one of my bears did not show any damage, nor did it apparently damage the fur underneath. None of the jointed bears un-jointed, which I would have expected. Wool felt and ultrasuede paws held up well (the wool thinned but didn't break) but leather dissolved into a gooey mess.
Oh, and the miniature bears came through spectacularly because they were small enough to fit in the fancy vacume chamber that was used to remove smoke damage from books.
So if you want to build a bear to last forever it appears that synthetic and ultrasuede miniatures would be the way to go. As a collector, even after the fire, I've never picked out a bear based on his ability to survive catastrophy or the slow catastrophy of the creeping of years. I fall in love with faces, and with clever ideas. So long as the critter can make it home and stand up to some gentle cuddling on the way.
-- Erika
Fuzzbutt Bears
Posts: 8,574Well for heavens sake!!!!!
Kelly wrote
Oil paint will break down your backing eventually too
Oil paint will not break down the backing of a natural protduct, such as cotton or linen for many many many many many many years.
For heavens sake Kelly what on earth do you think the great art of the world was painted on? Walls, fabric, wood,
Also so what if our work does not last 500 years! They are teddy bears, they are dolls, they are for joy and pleasure now! They will last for a hundred years.
Van Gough was not respected in his own time, very few of the dutch masters were, Many of our best authors died penniless, much too early because of poor health. Mozart was a mere child at death compared to most of us here!
If new forms and techniques are not experiemnted with we would still be living in caves with blood being one of our primary reds to paint with. Good grief, now that sounds pleasant doesn't it?
There is no right or wrong way to create something that bring pleasure to the creator and happiness to the recipient.
And Miss Kelly, most of the truly great works of art were created with a great deal of stress involved.
Michaelangelo was forced to do some of the work at the Vatican, Poe used cocaine and opium because of his stress, Beethoven couldn't hear.....hmmmm do you think he was a little stressed?
But he pushed the envelope right into the next century. He took us from classical to romantic in a single lifetime.....and changed music rules as they knew them then forever. WE could have augmented 5ths, we could have voices not following in the FUX rules of counterpoint. We could have disonnence! Wow!
Without experimentation we wouldn't be where we are today. We wouldn't have had Bach, french horns, organs, paints in fancy tubes, sewing machines, MOHAIR.
For heavens sake, Lets go a little easy on each other here.....this is supposed to be fun. And being told not to create understress is incredably counter productive, especially
You need to realize the gravity of what you're doing
....
The gravity is that we find pleasure and satisfaction in what we do and bring happiness to someone else.
I hope no one here is under the delussion that our art is going to be the great art of the next century
The lady who got me started has a bear in the Smithsonion. Yep, Sherryls bear that she made for her husband's friend Dizzy Gillesspie is there, but Sherryls reaction? In the greater scheme of things it is a moot point.
I rarely get upset here. And i am very sorry I got upset here now. But I take offence at anyone being told not to create under stress.....making teddies just might be the only stress reliever that truly works.
I appreciate strong opinions, but would ask that the opinionator remember other people also have feelings and opinions.
sigh
dilu
Baird'sBears
Poe was known to drink a bit, too! :hug:
Shakespeare, the dummy, knew little Latin and less Greek--just a commercial playwright/actor.
Milton was blind, and a real grouch of a daddy.
Pope was crippled, and as the first poet to earn a real living at it, did pretty well with 'this long disease, my life'.
Bears would have done them all some good, but they stumbled through, somehow.
Eileen
But when you have taught classes, done hundreds of shows and signings, and sold literally thousands of bears then you can tell me I am wrong and it's only MY opinion.
Kelly, nobody doubts your wisdom or your experience or your bearmaking talent or the degree to which you are appreciated in the bearmaking community. One of the first things I, myself, posted, when you first spoke up here was about your truly beautiful avatar bear. I respect your position in the bear community enormously and like many can learn a lot from you of value and import when it comes to bearmaking.
Do realize, tho, that -- like you! -- nobody ELSE wants to be told they are "wrong", or to be judged, either... whether they have made one bear, or one thousand. And they really don't want to be told that in front of peers they care about and whose opinions matter to them. And they don't want to be told that in full, international view of their collectors, because it has potential to damage their reputation.
And the truth of it is, that when you use words like "horrified" and "mystified" and "you need to realize the gravity of what you're doing," it doesn't sound like "help" or "advice"; it sounds like a judgement and a scolding... and a hugely public one at that.
TEDDY TALK is a place to meet and discuss ideas about bearmaking. It's a place to brainstorm and toss things around. It's a place where the pros and cons of a particular method, media, or technique can be fleshed out to the benefit of us all. What it's NOT, tho, is a place looking for a one-size-fits-all "prescription" of what "art" is, and how bears "should" be made. If Nadine Murat Thevenot, or Berta Hesen Minten, had agreed that bears can only be made of mohair, in the traditional way, in traditional colors, in a biggish size ... then we would not have the great gift of their fabulously inventive, colorful, whimsical, itty-bitty thread creations. And this is just one of the ways that "thinking out of the box" in the bear industry specifically has led to amazing new outcomes. We want to ENCOURAGE that kind of "out of the box" thinking here; not squash it because "Steiff didn't do it."
But we also try to make TEDDY TALK a place where, no matter how you make bears, YOUR idea of what "art" is and YOUR idea of how bears "should" be made will be respected... even if you are the only one to think in those ways.
We try very hard to keep things light and friendly here, and to keep everyone, no matter what their opinion, feeling safe. This allows for the freest flow of ideas, and makes for a great springboard for fresh new directions in bearmaking! It's a brave thing to post one's ideas to a public, international, board like TEDDY TALK; and how awful it would be if someone, roughly scolded, slunk away because they received some kind of chastising, over something they wanted to try, for all to see.
To that end... it's one thing to say: "I'd be very worried about using glue on my bears; I don't think Steiff used it, because they felt it would degrade materials over time. And traditionally, glue isn't a part of bearmaking. I prefer to make my bears in traditional style... so I choose not to use glue, and would encourage you to rethink your use of it yourselves, pending further research on how fabrics respond to it over time. My personal feeling is that it might interfere with the survival time of my work, and it's important to me not to impede that in any way."
That is an honest comment, owned as personal opinion, offered as advice, which does not judge. It's not "wrapped in a pretty bow" to diffuse some time-bomb hidden beneath, and it's not a heap of lies put on a silver plate. It's another way of stating exactly what you stated in your first post, Kelly. But in this case, it's a statement of opinion, showcasing personal accountability, and offered in the spirit of helping and sharing... not questioning and judging.
We can all learn from a statement like this one. We can all appreciate and respect the experience and talent behind it.
It's entirely another thing entirely, though, in my opinion, to say things like:
---> "few can make a bear that's cute or snazzy lookin that will last through the generations because of quality. THAT is what makes us the artists"
IS that what makes us the artists??? Who, exactly, defined "ARTISTS" as: people who can make something that lasts thru generations because of quality.
???
Personally, when I buy art -- and I do, in many forms -- I don't think, "I need to find the one made with the highest quality archival-quality materials because I want it to last 500 years; that's the number one priority on my list." What I think instead is, "Does this appeal? Is it carefully and thoughtfully made using quality materials and attention to detail? Is it unique and special? Will it bring me joy?"
Similarly, it's entirely another thing to use language with strangers who are trying to DO THEIR BEST and SEEK INFORMATION like ---> "I'm horrified;" "I'm mystified;" and "you need to... you need to... you need to... you need to..." repeatedly (four times actually.) WHY do we "need to" do those things, Kelly? Because YOU do??? This is not, in my opinion, the offering of "help" or "advice" Rather, this is an expression of disgust, and a judgement; it is the questioning of how someone else does things simply because it's different than your own idea of how those things should be done. And it's a lecture. As such, it's damaging to camaraderie and morale... and is best left off the board.
On a different topic... I do realize that Van Gogh starved in his lifetime; his works were largely unsold. However, that wasn't my point. My point was that, despite being under enormous, self-destructive, mentally unstable, amounts of stress... he was able to produce art of such amazing quality and originality that, hundreds of years later, people are willing to pay 82.5 million dollars for it. In other words, my point was to show just one example of how stress is NOT necessarily a determining factor when it comes to quality of product.
Last, I'm truly sorry you feel the need to "proverbially take (your) toys and go home." It's obvious that you have an enormous amount of knowledge and experience to share which, if gently stated and owned as yours, we would have benefitted greatly from hearing.
LuxembearsTEDDY TALK is a place to meet and discuss ideas about bearmaking. It's a place to brainstorm and toss things around. It's a place where the pros and cons of a particular method, media, or technique can be fleshed out to the benefit of us all. What it's NOT, tho, is a place looking for a one-size-fits-all "prescription" of what "art" is, and how bears "should" be made. If Nadine Murat Thevenot, or Berta Hesen Minten, had agreed that bears can only be made of mohair, in the traditional way, in traditional colors, in a biggish size ... then we would not have the great gift of their fabulously inventive, colorful, whimsical, itty-bitty thread creations. And this is just one of the ways that "thinking out of the box" in the bear industry specifically has led to amazing new outcomes. We want to ENCOURAGE that kind of "out of the box" thinking here; not squash it because "Steiff didn't do it."
AMEN!!
scott's bearsHello love ya all with respect !!! NO GLUE !!! Donnas post about leather weld to keep your lineing in place(spairingly) when working with real fur befor sewing it to your cut peices to reinforse the fur is time tested and NOT A FINNISHING SKILL and in line with the thread of the question of the post. If you are useing a glue in a finnishing skill and you feel that you cannot find a neddle arts prosses to make the skill work and then still deside to use this prosses then you should in your description of the work include the word glue ..like..
"BOBBY" has neddle felted pawpads with glued leather bearclaws
The bottom line for me from all angles is the genraly accepted definiton of what we all do "Neddle Arts " the term is a great umbrella thats includes much of all the work we do but separates us from other artist forms in a respectfull way.
soooo if your not doing it with a neddle then you need to let the collector, the store and the artist comunity know that your cool new great pretty finnishing skill comes form outside our work disaplin "Neddle Arts" and has been adapted to create a wounderfull new intresting aspect to your work so that care and treatment can be known up front in the overveiw of the work.
putting my catchers mask on and huddling in the corner LOL
BearHugs
SCOTT
No need for a mask, Scott... I appreciate and respect your perspective. Thanks for offering it. I am also 100% behind the idea of "truth in advertising" and try to disclose, in my own work, whenever applicable, when I've done something that I consider to be "outside the lines" of bear making, as I understand the process has traditionally taken place. I like to think that most bear makers are that open as well. Integrity, in any business, is important. And collectors appreciate a "known quantity;" there's not much business smarts in "surprising" your collector with something unexpected that is ALSO undesirable, to that particular collector!
Actually, I didn't read this thread until late last night because I am on a new "time management schedule" where I have allowed myself permission to NOT read EVERY LAST THING. Since I don't use glue in my bears -- except for a tiny droplet, on the end of a strand of 2mm leather cording, which gets inserted into the head and doesn't contact anything but polyfil stuffing -- I didn't read this for a long time, because it doesn't apply to my work, and I had nothing to offer, technique and media-wise.
I don't disclose to the degree that I'm writing things like, "I use glue to attach the leather cording I use for eyelids to the polyfil stuffing inside the head of my bear after I poke an awl hole." That's not because I'm trying to hide things; that's because it's verbose and, to my mind, unnecessary.
But I do absolutely support the idea that, if someone is, say, glueing pawpads on, which would "normally" be sewn on... rather than inserting and sewing them in... then a description that states, "Features adhered paw pads" would be appropriate and most honest and should probably be included in any listing or sales information.
But then, that's just my opinion...
;)
Thanks for sharing.
:hug:
MerBear OriginalsHow did this thread get to this point? I thought Sharri's original posting was about using a glue wash to stop a synthetic fabric from stretching - how did it get to using glue on mohair to hold the bear together!
Marion
Upstate New YorkMarion,
You ever see a car swerving out of control? Anything like that? 
MerBear Originalsyou're so right....everybody take a deep breath! It's the weekend and those poor sods of us who work during the week now have the weekend to make bears - once we've de-stressed ourselves of course
Marion
You ever see a car swerving out of control? Anything like that?
Yes, well... and it's not the first time... and TT is not the first forum in which this has happened... and it seems to me that everyone is really, at the core, only trying to figure out the highest quality, "best," most intelligent way to make bears... so in that we're really all on the very same page and certainly, in our bearmaking, we're on the very same team...
... so yes, deep breath, everyone relax. EXCELLENT suggestion, Marion. Put your feet up. Have some wine/beer/mixed drinks/chocolate/backrub/sex/whatever does it for you... and let's get back to friendly bearmaking!
Well said Shelli...I second that!!!!
Jenny
Baird'sBears
I'll have a dozen of the chocolates and one of everything else, thanks!
Eileen
Flying Fur StudiosHave some wine/beer/mixed drinks/chocolate/backrub/sex/whatever does it for you... and let's get back to friendly bearmaking!
Shelli, how did you know what I'm doing tonight? LOL
I say, each to his own. Whatever works for you must be the right way.
Does that go for wine/beer/mixed drinks/chocolate/backrub/sex, too?
I guess... YES!
Ahhh... Democracy.
HEATHER... WHERE DID YOU GET THAT QUOTE??? I love it. I'm copying it out even as I type. Sorta.
Upstate New YorkShelli, how did you know what I'm doing tonight? LOL
HAAAAAAA! That's funny!
Darned good suggestion too! I'm leaving work early for some wine/beer/mixed drinks/chocolate/backrub/sex of my own.
Hugs to all,
Gee whiz. Miss a thread....miss the swerving, out of control car! And it looks as if there were injuries. 
Warmest hugs all around, :hug:
Aleta
Newcastle, OntarioI've read all the posts with interest. Ive been making bears for almost 10 years and have also collected several during this time. Maybe I'm different than most people, but I almost always buy bears "after" I've met the artist and there definitley has to be a connection between us. When I look at my bears, I feel it's like having a little bit of the artist with me, so as a customer, I would have to say that I'm extremely interested in knowing about the artists' life. On one rare occasion, I bought a bear from a shop because I loved an artist's bears. Then I exhibited near him at a show and by the end of the show I had made my decision to sell it for lots of reasons - I didn't want it in my collection, but that's just my personal eccentricity. I have also become very good friends with several of my collectors and I understand their desire to "get to know me". I think it's all part of the joy of collecting.
I am also definitely one artist that does better under stress, for some reason. If I am really upset about something, focusing on a bear is like a magic formula for taking my mnd off my problem. When I zone in on bear I'm making, the entire house could be crumbling and I would still be stitting there working on my bear LOL!. So I really believe it's a personal thing for each artist and it's impossible to make judgements for other artists. Even when we ask each other for advice, each one of us has to be able to decide what's best for us, and feel comfortable with it. I hope I am not offending anyone with my post. Take care and bye for now.
Hugs,
Brenda
Kim-Bee BearsI cant imagine gluing all of my bear parts together ... that would be scary... I only superglue my cording around my eyes, like Shel
LOL... Heather, you crack me up!
Past Time BearsOh . . . my . . . goodness! It's taken me an hour to go through this thread . . . and I'm just agog. First, Shelli . . . you have written such very wise and reasonable responses to these posts. I feel that we MUST respect each other and each other's work, whether we agree with the techniques used or even if the final product doesn't appeal to us. As a society in general, we've become far too rude and caustic in dealing with our fellow human beings - all of us have feelings and what has happened to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? Please, folks, couldn't we all just treat each other with warmth and compassion? If we have an opinion that doesn't jive with someone else's, could we not just address that issue behind the scenes with that person and not go on a public board with it? As stated many times, Teddy Talk strives to be a SAFE meeting place where all can enjoy learning new things and discuss our favorite subject. As an aside, I started making bears 9 years ago as a result of going through a very stressful, personal crisis. Making bears undoubtedly helped save my life. A lot of art would NEVER be born if not for stress. Have a great weekend everybody. :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:
Nova Scotia,CanadaI just want to say that I am very sorry for all that my post has caused. I never dreamt that asking about using a bit of spray adhesive could be such a bee's nest. While I do respect everyone's right to their opinion , I feel it should be given while still respecting the feelings of others. I simply would not even be on this board at all if the people who are on it were not the loving,caring, supportive people that they are. I do realize now more than ever ,the special bond and incredible atmosphere that we have all created on TT. :hug: :hug:
I have just found out this morning after meeting with specialists that my condition that I am dealing with requires surgery to be done as soon as possible and I will be operated on on Feb. 21. (happy birthday to me :redface: ) My surgeon is hopeful that all will be well but we won't know for sure until that time. I will be away from TT a great deal while my family and I prepare and then for awhile after while I recover. I think the stress of this very fast developing condition made me very emotional when I realized where my simple post had gone. I could not post a reply but felt very supported by all my friends here.Thank-you!!! You all mean a great deal to me! :hug: :hug: 
