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Bumpkin Bears Mar 2, 2006

Hi everyone,

Having always used cotter pin joints I was just wondering if lock nut joints would be any better?  Do you have to have a lot of new tools to be able to tighten them?  Do they make a much larger hole in the fabric where they joint?  Are they harder on your wrists to do then cotter pins?  Do they really give a tighter finish to arms and legs?  Do they help with standing up bears?  Do any of you buy these supplies in a hardware store?  Sorry for alll the questions, but this type of jointing is all new to me 

Thanks for any help,
HUGS
Catherine

Cleathero Creations Mar 2, 2006

I don't use cotter pins unless on my minis but even then I can get really small lock nut joints.  I could never tighten my cotter pins enough ever.
I glue the bolt to the washer to the disc  so you don't have to fiddle arouns with a screw driver.
I use a ratchet spanner to put the locknut on to get it nice and tight.  But before that I just used the normal spanner and still got it tight.... more work though.
I don't find them harder woith the ratchet spanner and they do make a larger hole.
than cotter pins but I have not had any problems.
My bears usually have bent legs so I don't know about helping with standing.
Hope this helped a little.
And yes I buy in bulk from the hardware store (actually we live near a nut and bolt specialist) because the prices are cheaper.

Daphne Mar 2, 2006

http://www.teddy-talk.com/viewtopic.php?id=2778
http://www.teddy-talk.com/viewtopic.php?id=1722

You might find a lot of useful info from the links above where we've discussed the use of both cotterpins and nuts and bolts in depth.

One is not BETTER than the other. It simply depends on what you are trying to achieve. If it's tight joints that never loosen, the ability to stand... then nuts and bolts are they way to go. If you want loose and floppy or aren't concerned with the joints loosening as time goes on, or can't manage the tools involved, then cotter pins are great.

I don't glue my nuts, bolt and discs... it's just one more step. I don't have a problem attaching my limbs then stuffing them so I have access to the end of the bolt inside the limb for attaching.

You'll need a nut driver and a wrench. You can see samples of what you'd use here: (in fact pictures of all jointing tools for various types of joints are here. Wrench and nut driver are toward the bottom of the page.)

http://www.edinburghimports.com/shoppin … 92364=S013

Nut driver goes on end of tapbolt inside limb, wrench goes on nut inside body and just tighten. Tighten until it takes a lot of effort to turn the limb if you want tight joints for standing, etc. Once stuffed the joint will be a bit looser and as the fur between the joint packs down it will loosen a bit more. (Trim fur between disc on body and limb to avoid this). Nut will not come loose as you are using loc-nuts which have a nylon band inside to catch and hold the screw threads.

Some like to stuff their limbs, close 'em up then joint so this is where one of two things comes in handy: glueing as Bronwen described or using set screws. The set screw has a hole in one end where an allen key fits in, then just use a wrench on the nut while holding the setcrew still with the allen key and tighten nut... all done inside the body. Further instructions are here in this post: http://www.teddy-talk.com/viewtopic.php?id=2662

I've tried all jointing techniques and use them all depending on the size and effect I want.

Experiment to find what is right for you.

Bumpkin Bears Mar 2, 2006

Thanks a lot for looking all that up, I had tried to find it in searching but didn't get very far.  Lots of reading to go for me

SunnieOne Mar 2, 2006

I started off using cotter pin joints, but I could never get them tight enough to help with standing. So I now always use nut and bolt method. Sometimes I glue the bolt to the disk beforehand. It depends on how organized I am at the time. I don't find that it takes any more effort to use the nut and bolt method. I still use cotter pins for the head/neck joint most of the time, but I prefer to use nut and bolts for the neck joints also.
Sonya

shantell Mar 2, 2006

I recently started using setscrew and locknut joints in my limbs...and LOVE IT!  I would certainly encourage you to try each method and find the one that is easiest for you to use.  I also want to try the tapbolts too. 

You will see a big different in the tightness of your limbs.  I'm still playing with how to get them even the FIRST time.  It takes practice but it's easy.

Go for it!!!

Daphne Mar 2, 2006

Shantell,

This may sound like a real obvious technique for getting all the limbs tightened the same. It sort of is but I always for get to do it when I start out.

Count how many times you turn the wrench to get to the desired tightness on the first joint. The remainder of the joints should take approximately the same number of turns.

Sounds good in theory anyway!!! It usually works for me if I remember to count!

Daphne

Jare Hares & Bears Mar 2, 2006

I use setscrews for the neck joints and lock nuts and bolts for the rest of my joints.
I tighten each nut as tight as I can get it then I losen 1/2 turn to 1 1/2 turns in order to ge tthe desired tightness.
The big advantage of lock nuts is that in 10 years if you need to re-tighten the join you can just go in and tighten that nut. With cotter pins you will have to replace the cotter pin.
But it doesn't really matter with method you use. Daphane is right, it all depends on what your goal is. If you want a loose floppy bear use cotter pins. If you want them to stand up I would use luck nuts and bolts.
When I make really floppy pieces I use 2 cotter pins hooked together. But most of the time I just use lock nuts and bolts.

lemmonbears Mar 4, 2006

I'm glad this subject came up.

I've been trying set screws and locknuts, but I can't seem to get them to tighten down enough.  I have RA, but I was having a really good hand strength day and still couldn't get the nut tight enough.  I have tried the locknut and bolts with glueing the disc to the bolt and it works okay, but I still had trouble tightening the nut and holding the disc from moving as I tightened.  Am I doing something wrong or do I need more muscles?
Joan

Daphne Mar 4, 2006

Hm.....
I have found that using an allen key with a T shaped handle helped me a lot to get the leverage I needed to tighten the nuts onto set screws.

Are you making sure there is no fur trapped in the nut as you tighten it down onto the screw?

Try having an extra bowl of Wheaties for breakfast!!!

Wish I had other suggestions.

Oh, I do!!! Duh!!!

A rechargeable hand drill!!! I have one that isn't too heavy and a bit I got from Donna for set screws. It works like a charm and so much easier on the hands! (I have tendonitis in my hands so am always looking for an easy way to do things.) I just got the drill and have only used it a few times but I know there are others here who use one.

lemmonbears Mar 4, 2006

Thanks, I'll try to find a t-shaped one.  I think I will raid my husbands tool supply again and try the cordless driver too.  I may have had a bit of hair caught it too.
Thanks for the help.
Joan

fredbear Mar 6, 2006

My tuppence worth, I just find that cotter pins with my bears never seem to be that tight, maybe I just do not have the strength to tightnen them. I know that the European artists seem to use them a lot, and if you purchase kits in Europe they will always come with cotter pins, with the cotter pin heads shaped like a T. Even using the special cotter pin turning tools, I can never get them that tight, and if I pull to hard, even having a washer in place, I can pull the T pin straight out, so have to start all over again. I know that a lot of my friends bears in Europe have a much looser limb and they are cute and of course will not fall off, some do have very tight limbs, maybe hubby does they attaching and has that extra strength to tightnen them.

I therefore with my bears use the lock/ nut/attach system. To make things easier, I bought myself a Bosch  electrical screw driver with the attachment that fits the nut.
To use,the screwdriver  fits the nut say on the limb being attached, while inside the body on the screw head I use one of the tools that you can purchase from a teddy bear supplier that holds the screw in place, and then screw the two together. I normally make it fairly tight, this way the limbs are firmly attached to the body.

With the head, of course I only have one opening, so here I will use a cotter pin, unless I use a screw that is self tapering( not sure of the right word) but one that does not need holding on the other side- then once it is in place you have to strip the shaft so that the nut does not come un done- not technical at all, only know how to do it- not the right words to explain this method, maybe hubby will know the right terms.

The electrical Bosch screw driver, was not that expensive, it is small, self charging  and easy and fast to use.

Lynette

TamiL Mar 7, 2006

I used cotter pins on my first 2 bears and I could not get them as tight as I liked so
now I use the lock nut method and it seems to work better for me.

Judi Mar 7, 2006

I too, like the lock nuts.  I use  vice grips tp hold onto the bolt end while tightening with a nut wrench.  It's very easy and works like a charm for me.

Jare Hares & Bears Mar 8, 2006

Someday I will post a picture of what I use... 

I use the ratchet wrench and what is called a T-Bar. The T-Bar holds the bolt in place while I tighten the lock nut.

Tracy Mar 8, 2006

I find that the bolt/lock nut holds the tightest too.  Like to use these on limbs and a cotter pin for the neck.   I use a straight wrench (is that what it's called?) to hold the bolt and a ratchet wrench to tighten.  The Hubby gets a kick out of watching me do this.  He thinks it looks--and sounds--like I'm torturing the poor bears!!    ratchet....ratchet.......ratchet.....ratchet......ratchet......ratchet.......ratchet.....  

:hug:
Tracy

Donna Mar 8, 2006

I like to use the setscrew method for jointing.  I started out using cotter pins but found that turning them hurt my wrists and I couldn't get a good consistent joint.  I moved onto the lock nut and bolt system and started glueing the disc to the bolt so I could close up the arms and legs before attaching them to the body.  I had some trouble with them coming loose and it would take a day of glueing joints.  So when I found the set screws I was in bear making heaven.  I use a bit in a ratcheting screwdriver to put in the end of the setscrew and then use a regular wrench to hold the nut.  In my opinion it works like a charm. 
Donna

Shelli Retired Help Advisor, Banner SponsorMar 8, 2006

I use a similar method.

I use BOLTS (which have a hex-head) and nylon-center LOCKNUTS.  I buy these in bulk at a reasonable price at my local hardware store. 

If you choose to do this, do be sure the bolts and locknuts match, in terms of both (1.) "size" (the hole in the nut must match the diameter of the bolt; for example, 1/4 inch) and (2.) "thread".   Some bolts/nuts have more "threads" per vertical unit than others, even if they are all marked "1/4 inch."  The easiest way to test for this match between bolt and nut is to simply try to screw one of the nuts onto one of the bolts!  If it screws down easily it's a match; if it hangs up or starts to strip the bolt, there's a problem.  With questions you can't resolve on your own, just ask one of the store helpers to match your hardware for you.  They'll be able to get you where you need to be.

Then, to tighten, I use two NUT DRIVERS.  I'm attaching a photo of a nutdriver here for you to see.  You just place the hex head of one nut driver over the hex bolt, inside the limb (arm, leg)... and then place the hex head of the other nut driver over the hex nut, inside the body.  And then, twist in opposite directions!

It's VERY easy to tighten down joints in this fashion and doesn't require a lot of strength.  It also works your hands/wrists evenly, because your natural inclination will be to twist one of the nut drivers away from you, and one toward you.  Rather than keeping one hand still, and doing all the work with the other one.  So this method might be friendly for arthritic hands, too.

Just another example of how there are ten million ways to do the very same thing, in bearmaking.

Hope this helps someone out!

Bumpkin Bears Mar 9, 2006

thanks everyone for your help and thanks Shelli for those clear photos - I need to go to a hardware store and see what they have!  Not so easy for me to ask in Flemish about matching nuts and bolts.....!  I think they would look very strangely at me if I then mentioned teddy bears too  !!

Hugs
Catherine